Proposal to overhaul progression

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superben21
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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby superben21 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:53 am

torontogrudlies wrote:...but 99 does mean "there's no room for improvement." Even if the player is about to play in the most important game of the year, in primetime, against the team which stiffed him on his contract, this can't be reflected, because he's already 99.

Well the attributes do go all the way up to 167 (I think that's the right number) so you could make important games in the 100+ attribute ratings....
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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby RevanFan » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:36 pm

superben21 wrote:
torontogrudlies wrote:...but 99 does mean "there's no room for improvement." Even if the player is about to play in the most important game of the year, in primetime, against the team which stiffed him on his contract, this can't be reflected, because he's already 99.

Well the attributes do go all the way up to 167 (I think that's the right number) so you could make important games in the 100+ attribute ratings....

Attributes go up to 127, and it doesn't really make much of a difference, although there is some difference between 127 and 99.
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Drizzt_13
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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby Drizzt_13 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:53 pm

does it mean it would be possible, under very rare circumstances, for player to hit 100 or 101?

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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby NickyJ » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:27 pm

I think I once saw Chris Johnson have a speed or acceleration rating of 100.
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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby Drizzt_13 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:17 pm

Getting back to the idea of progression, I had a couple ideas about how it could work. The way I see it there are two types of factors that effect the rate of progression factors based around quantity of time and factors based around quality of time. The amount of playtime a player gets, time spent doing drills, in team meetings, or working out are all quantity factors. Things like the teaching ability of a coach, the mentoring ability of another player, the will to work of a player and the innate intelligence a player posses are quality factors. Quality factors modify quantity factors, a really intelligent player who is motivated won't improve as much unless he gets the playing time and the drills necessary and a player who isn't intelligent or well coached will improve very little even if they get a lot of playtime. A formula for progression would be something like sum of quantity factors multiplied by the quality factors.
I'm going to get a little more specific about formulas for and progression I've thought of two ways we can do this. The first would be to treat it like xp in an RPG, you need a set amount of progression points to go up a point in the ratings. The other way would be to give a player a random chance to improve at specific intervals and have the odds of improving be influenced by the factors I've mentioned above. I think they're both good it's just a decision we between whether or not we want thing to be more predictable or more random.
Also I've been thinking a lot about the fact that if we want to avoid power creep we need two things to happen, we need young players to improve at the same rate old players decrease, and for players in the middle we need the possibility of increase to be just as strong as the possibility of decrease. I think we can get the first to happen fairly easily, the trick is to do the second without it being really frustrating for the player because their players decrease for no reason or because they put a lot of effort into a madden amp style training camp for very little benefit.
I think in the offseason the solution would be to just reduce player ratings across the board and let training camp bring them back up. It would represent players getting rusty and out of shape until training camp gets them ready for the season. It would also mean that a training camp app could cause significant increases without causing power creep because most of the points earned would just be offsetting the ones lost. Regression would not come from players decreasing for no reason, it would be the player not getting all the way back to where they were last year after the off-season.
During the season this is harder. Week to week modifiers for minor injuries and rivalries should balance each other out without taking into account long term progression. It makes sense that inactive players who used to be starters would decrease but we also need a way for active starters to decrease or else we'll just polarize the league as active players get better and better and inactive ones get worse. Basing this off of production kind of makes sense but it seems like we're trying to avoid this. Any Ideas?

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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby valvegas1 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:28 am

one thing i have seen mentioned but not discussed in depth is a particular ratings i have always had a major problem with in this game... the injury rating...in real life players get hurt and those injuries (depending on how severe they are) will make people more prone to future injuries...but in madden games if a player with an 88 injury rating gets a severe concussion and is out for the season his rating is still an 88...he gets another concussion and is out for 8 weeks the next season and stays at 88...see what i mean...the injury rating never changes no matter how many times a player gets hurt (or doesn't get hurt)...the injury rating should change based on the injuries received...and if a guy is hurt a few times and his rating drops but then goes six years without it should go back up...plus i think injuries should have an effect on a lot of other rating as well...i think if a player tears his ACL he loses a little speed, agility, and acceleration...in real life if a player suffers several knee related injuries it really impacts his ability to run...these are a few things that i think need to be implemented into a progression system in order for it to be "complete"

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Re: Proposal to overhaul progression

Postby Drizzt_13 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:21 pm

valvegas1 wrote:one thing i have seen mentioned but not discussed in depth is a particular ratings i have always had a major problem with in this game... the injury rating...in real life players get hurt and those injuries (depending on how severe they are) will make people more prone to future injuries...but in madden games if a player with an 88 injury rating gets a severe concussion and is out for the season his rating is still an 88...he gets another concussion and is out for 8 weeks the next season and stays at 88...see what i mean...the injury rating never changes no matter how many times a player gets hurt (or doesn't get hurt)...the injury rating should change based on the injuries received...and if a guy is hurt a few times and his rating drops but then goes six years without it should go back up...plus i think injuries should have an effect on a lot of other rating as well...i think if a player tears his ACL he loses a little speed, agility, and acceleration...in real life if a player suffers several knee related injuries it really impacts his ability to run...these are a few things that i think need to be implemented into a progression system in order for it to be "complete"


We were planning on making a separate part of the app which handles injuries more realistically, including small nagging injuries so that there is more of a reason to rest starters and other things. That's on the back shelf right now but if you want to go out and develop the formulas and stuff for how it should be handled go ahead that would be a huge help. This thread on progression is more about long term progression rather then short term game to game progression which is where injuries should be.

Edit: Just wanted to add a couple questions about how people think we should handle progression. I was thinking we'd have some sort of point system where drills, workouts, playtime earned x number of points (dependent on other variables of course) towards progressing. Ideally we would have some sort of formula relating number of progression points in an attribute to the rating. My question is should this be a linear or exponential equation? Should it be harder to go from 98 to 99 strength then it is from 70 to 71? And should this be based on the raw attribute or should it be based on the attribute as a percentage of the maximum potential rating?

Things to consider in this is that linear advantages players with high potentials, as does using percentages. Using exponentially increasing values based on raw attributes advantages low players players as they will find it relatively easy to hit their maximum. I think realism would be exponential based on percentages as it requires more effort to create gains the more in shape you are and people with high athletic potential would usually improve faster then those with lower potential. But I'm not entirely sure how that would effect balance. I think it would depend on how large the average disparity between potentials was.


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