Long Bombs and the reason they happen

[jose21crisis]

While watching a CPU vs. CPU game, Seahawks vs. Lions, the Lions were on top, 26-13. During the 4th Quarter, the Seahawks took possession and Russell Wilson found Doug Baldwin on a Streak for an 81 yard TD on the 1st play. I didn't play too much attention to it and figured it was luck. On their next possession, the EXACT SAME happened. Wilson, Baldwin, Streak, TD. They ended up losing 27-26. Anyway, after seeing THAT second TD, I figured that something must be wrong. How is that you let a streak route beat you twice?

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Madden NFL 08 PC v0.0 Game Log - Seahawks at Lions
Game Time: Sat Mar 10 21:59:55 2018
Skill Level: All Pro
Quarter Length: 15 minute(s)

Slider                         Human   CPU
QB Accuracy                       65    65
Pass Blocking                     40    40
Receiver Catching                 50    50
Running Ability                   50    50
Offensive line Run Blocking       17    17
Defensive Awareness               40    40
Defensive line Knockdowns          5     5
Interceptions                      1     1
Defensive Break Blocks            10    10
Tackling                          40    40
Fieldgoal Length                  55    55
Fieldgoal Accuracy                99    99
Punt Length                       46    46
Punt Accuracy                     99    99
Kickoff Length                    48    48

Weather
Forecast: Fair
Wind: 0 mph
Temp: 79 degrees

Team               Q1   Q2   Q3   Q4   OT      FINAL
Seahawks            3    3    7   13    0         26
Lions               3   10    6    8    0         27

Game Statistics:                 Seahawks      Lions
First Downs                            23         17
Third Down Conversions                  6          8
Third Downs                            13         19
Third Down Percentage               46.2%      42.1%
Fourth Down Conversions                 0          0
Fourth Downs                            1          0
Fourth Down Percentage               0.0%       0.0%
Two Pt Conversions Made                 1          0
Two Pt Conversions Attempted            1          0
Two Pt Conversion Percentage       100.0%       0.0%
Offense Redzone Num                     2          5
Offense Redzone TDs                     0          0
Offense Redzone FGs                     1          3
Offense Redzone Percentage          50.0%      60.0%
Rushing Attempts                       21         31
Rushing Yards                          71         23
Rushing Average                       3.4        0.7
Rushing TDs                             0          0
Passing Yards                         471        441
Passing Completions                    30         26
Passing Attempts                       48         42
Completion Percentage               62.5%      61.9%
Passing Average                       9.8       10.5
Passing TDs                             3          1
Offensive Pass Interceptions            3          1
TOTAL OFFENSE                         542        464
Defensive Pass Interceptions            1          3
Punt Return Yards                       9          0
Kick Return Yards                     109         55
Punts                                   3          4
Punt Avg                             47.7       37.5
Fumbles                                 1          0
Fumbles Lost                            0          0
Penalties                               5          3
Penalty Yds                            58         25
Turnovers                               3          1
TIME OF POSSESSION                  30:16      29:42

Individual Stats: Lions
PASSING                        CMP  ATT  YDS  PCT   YPA SACK   TD  INT LONG RATING
Matthew Stafford                12   19  235   63  12.3    0    1    1   93  101.8
Nick Foles                      14   23  218   60   9.4    2    0    0   57   92.3

RUSHING                        ATT  YDS   AVG LONG   TD  FUM
Akrum Wadley                    15   20   1.3    8    0    0
Darren Fells                     2    3   1.5    2    0    0
Nick Foles                       2    0   0.0    1    0    0
Theo Riddick                    12    0   0.0    5    0    0

RECEIVING                      REC  YDS   AVG LONG   TD DROP  YAC
Golden Tate                      7  213  30.4   93    1    0   93
Devonte Boyd                     5   79  15.7   33    0    1    2
Kenny Golladay                   4   78  19.5   52    0    0   10
Michael Roberts                  3   38  12.6   30    0    0   12
Akrum Wadley                     2   14   7.0   14    0    0    9
Jordan Matthews                  2   13   6.5   14    0    1    4
Nick O'Leary                     2   10   5.0    8    0    0    0
Theo Riddick                     1    8   8.0    8    0    0    1

KICKING                        FGM  FGA  PCT FGSBLOCKED  XPA  XPM  PCT XPSBLOCKED KICKOFFS TOUCHBACKS
Matt Prater                      6    6  100          0    1    1  100          0        3          2
Kasey Redfern                    0    0    0          0    0    0    0          0        4          0

PUNTING                        ATT  YDS   AVG LONG BLOCKS IN20 TOUCHBACKS
Kasey Redfern                    4  150  37.5   44      0    0          0

KICK RETURNS                   ATT  YDS   AVG   TD LONG
Theo Riddick                     2   42  21.0    0   24
Golden Tate                      1   13  13.0    0   13

PUNT RETURNS                   ATT  YDS   AVG LONG   TD
Golden Tate                      0    0   0.0    0    0
Theo Riddick                     0    0   0.0    0    0

DEFENSE                        TOT LOSS SACK   FF FREC  YDS   TD  INT  RET   AVG DEFLECTIONS SAFETIES CTH ALLOW BIG HITS
Jarrad Davis                     8    2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Teez Tabor                       6    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         8        0
Tahir Whitehead                  6    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Darius Slay                      5    0    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         5        0
Bruce Carter                     4    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           2        0         0        0
Anthony Averett                  4    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         4        0
Quandre Diggs                    4    0    0    0    0    0    0    1    1   1.0           2        0         5        0
Ziggy Ansah                      4    0    0    0    0    0    0    1    2   2.0           1        0         0        0
A'Shawn Robinson                 3    0    1    1    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Anthony Zettel                   3    1    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Miles Killebrew                  2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         1        0
Jeremiah Valoaga                 2    1    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Glover Quin                      2    0    0    0    0    0    0    1   10  10.0           1        0         2        0
Steve Longa                      1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Jalen Reeves-Maybin              1    0    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Charles Washington               1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Jordan Matthews                  1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Haloti Ngata                     1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Tavon Wilson                     1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         1        0

BLOCKING                      PANCAKES SACKS ALLOWED
Ricky Wagner                         6             1
Darren Fells                         3             0
T. J. Lang                           3             0
Taylor Decker                        3             0
Kevin Pendleton                      1             0
Michael Roberts                      1             0
Graham Glasgow                       1             0
Devonte Boyd                         1             0
Ziggy Ansah                          1             0
Tim Lelito                           0             1


Individual Stats: Seahawks
PASSING                        CMP  ATT  YDS  PCT   YPA SACK   TD  INT LONG RATING
Will Grier                      16   29  344   55  11.8    4    3    2   84  103.2
Russell Wilson                  14   19  145   73   7.6    1    0    1   30   73.4

RUSHING                        ATT  YDS   AVG LONG   TD  FUM
Thomas Rawls                    10   31   3.0   16    0    0
Russell Wilson                   3   19   6.3   11    0    0
Eddie Lacy                       7   19   2.7    8    0    0
Nick Vannett                     1    2   2.0    2    0    0

RECEIVING                      REC  YDS   AVG LONG   TD DROP  YAC
Tyler Lockett                    7  178  25.4   58    2    1  118
Doug Baldwin                    10  169  16.8   84    1    0   86
Tanner McEvoy                    7   85  12.1   17    0    0   16
Jimmy Graham                     2   29  14.5   20    0    0    0
Thomas Rawls                     2   16   8.0   15    0    0   10
Amara Darboh                     2   12   6.0   11    0    1    0

KICKING                        FGM  FGA  PCT FGSBLOCKED  XPA  XPM  PCT XPSBLOCKED KICKOFFS TOUCHBACKS
Andrew Franks                    2    3   66          0    2    2  100          0        4          2
Blair Walsh                      0    0    0          0    0    0    0          0        1          0

PUNTING                        ATT  YDS   AVG LONG BLOCKS IN20 TOUCHBACKS
Jon Ryan                         3  143  47.6   50      0    2          0

KICK RETURNS                   ATT  YDS   AVG   TD LONG
Tyler Lockett                    1   22  22.0    0   22
Earl Thomas III                  4   87  21.7    0   27

PUNT RETURNS                   ATT  YDS   AVG LONG   TD
Earl Thomas III                  2    9   4.5    8    0
Tyler Lockett                    0    0   0.0    0    0

DEFENSE                        TOT LOSS SACK   FF FREC  YDS   TD  INT  RET   AVG DEFLECTIONS SAFETIES CTH ALLOW BIG HITS
Bryce Callahan                   5    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         3        0
Michael Bennett                  5    2    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Kam Chancellor                   5    2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         2        0
Bobby Wagner                     5    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Brad McDougald                   4    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         1        0
Frank Clark                      4    3    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Earl Thomas III                  4    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Marcus Smith II                  4    2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Shaquill Griffin                 4    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         4        0
D. J. Alexander                  3    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Josh Bynes                       3    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Sheldon Richardson               3    2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Tre' Williams                    3    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Jarran Reed                      2    1    1    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Rasheem Green                    2    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
K. J. Wright                     2    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         1        0
Tyrell Crosby                    1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Doug Baldwin                     1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Richard Sherman                  1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           1        0         0        0
Luke Joeckel                     1    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0   0.0           0        0         0        0
Phillip Gaines                   0    0    0    0    0    0    0    1    1   1.0           3        0         2        0

BLOCKING                      PANCAKES SACKS ALLOWED
Tyrell Crosby                        7             0
Jimmy Graham                         4             0
Germain Ifedi                        4             0
Luke Joeckel                         3             0
Evan Smith                           3             0
Thomas Rawls                         1             0
Tanner McEvoy                        1             0
Beau Benzschawel                     0             1
Ethan Pocic                          0             1
Troy Fumagalli                       0             1


Game Log Ends
------------------------------------------------------------


And let me tell you that they might have nothing to do with that. I saw the replay of the play, and I saw what the defenders did. The Lions did the smart thing, Cover 2 Man, two safeties over the top to cover streaks and flag routes. They are supposed to not let anyone get behind them. Well ... let's say that Mr. Baldwin did get behind the Free Safety, and shed a tackle while at it.

Now, I have 2 theories about this. The first, the EA reason, is that the defender only seems to react to the receiver when they enter their zone and they are close enough. When they go from the "passive" mode (Wait until someone triggers the defender) to "Active" mode (Follow that guy through and out of the zone) by the time the defender turns around and starts accelerating, the receiver, already at top speed, just runs by him and the QB can send a bomb over the defenders head.

The second theory is actually the realistic reason. Ready for it?

QB Vision™

In the real game, defenders in zone coverage try to look at the Quarterback and follow his motions and where he is looking to see where he is going to throw the ball. You might remember that Ed Reed excelled at this, and he has the record for the longest pick six, as well as the runner up. That allows them to adjust to the receiver most likely to receive the pass that is in their zone. Naturally, this can backfire if the QB is smart enough to "look off" the defender, but the point stands. Now, the problem starts when there is no QB Vision. What are the defenders reacting to? They are just reacting at the receivers moving around, instead of the QB's motions and sight. Since to them, every receiver has the exact same chance of getting the touch as each other, they don't instantly react to them. That is until they actually get close enough (Or got the Defensive Spotlight, but that's other issue). So, unable to follow one of the keys of zone coverage, this could result in blown coverage, because the defender didn't knew that streaking Tight End or Wide Receiver could actually be getting the touch and watches him until he gets close.

That's my theory. I don't think it is related to the offense, I think is related to the Defense letting the Offense go deep.

[NickyJ]

I'll have to try that out with QB vision. I always figured it was just that Madden will ALWAYS make sure if a team is trailing by any score in the 4th quarter, that team will score no matter what barring a user-controlled interception.

That, and Dallas got beat by 2 streak routes in a row irl.

[jose21crisis]

I'll have to try that out with QB vision. I always figured it was just that Madden will ALWAYS make sure if a team is trailing by any score in the 4th quarter, that team will score no matter what barring a user-controlled interception.

That, and Dallas got beat by 2 streak routes in a row irl.

Well, any team trailing by a TD against Aaron Rodgers with 2 secs in the clock and 50 yards to the endzone is at the receiving end of this (Hi, Lions. Hi, Cardinals).

Anyway, that's at least the theory I have related to how zones work IRL. Madden has the signature "Comeback Mode", but it doesn't appear to be as serious in CPU vs. CPU or Coach Mode. In Player vs. CPU it was straight ... hmmm ... how was it put ... The "No F'ing way" game.

[KeepinItTeal]

The second theory is actually the realistic reason. Ready for it?

QB Vision™

In the real game, defenders in zone coverage try to look at the Quarterback and follow his motions and where he is looking to see where he is going to throw the ball. You might remember that Ed Reed excelled at this, and he has the record for the longest pick six, as well as the runner up. That allows them to adjust to the receiver most likely to receive the pass that is in their zone. Naturally, this can backfire if the QB is smart enough to "look off" the defender, but the point stands. Now, the problem starts when there is no QB Vision. What are the defenders reacting to? They are just reacting at the receivers moving around, instead of the QB's motions and sight. Since to them, every receiver has the exact same chance of getting the touch as each other, they don't instantly react to them. That is until they actually get close enough (Or got the Defensive Spotlight, but that's other issue). So, unable to follow one of the keys of zone coverage, this could result in blown coverage, because the defender didn't knew that streaking Tight End or Wide Receiver could actually be getting the touch and watches him until he gets close.

That's my theory. I don't think it is related to the offense, I think is related to the Defense letting the Offense go deep.

Sorry, are you saying that if you turn off QB Vision in CPU v. CPU games you should see less long bomb completions?

[jose21crisis]

The second theory is actually the realistic reason. Ready for it?

QB Vision™

In the real game, defenders in zone coverage try to look at the Quarterback and follow his motions and where he is looking to see where he is going to throw the ball. You might remember that Ed Reed excelled at this, and he has the record for the longest pick six, as well as the runner up. That allows them to adjust to the receiver most likely to receive the pass that is in their zone. Naturally, this can backfire if the QB is smart enough to "look off" the defender, but the point stands. Now, the problem starts when there is no QB Vision. What are the defenders reacting to? They are just reacting at the receivers moving around, instead of the QB's motions and sight. Since to them, every receiver has the exact same chance of getting the touch as each other, they don't instantly react to them. That is until they actually get close enough (Or got the Defensive Spotlight, but that's other issue). So, unable to follow one of the keys of zone coverage, this could result in blown coverage, because the defender didn't knew that streaking Tight End or Wide Receiver could actually be getting the touch and watches him until he gets close.

That's my theory. I don't think it is related to the offense, I think is related to the Defense letting the Offense go deep.

Sorry, are you saying that if you turn off QB Vision in CPU v. CPU games you should see less long bomb completions?

I meant to turn QB Vision on.

I did some more testing on this. I turned QB Accuracy to 34. It was a pain to complete deep passes with no QB Vision. I turned QB Vision On, and now it seems to be easier to complete deep passes. Like, the QB seems to have a longer passing range with QB Vision on. However, with QB Vision On, it also results in the defender reacting to that receiver faster.

[henshao]

A lot of it has to do with the nerfing of defensive player pursuit angles in Madden 08. I remember back in, must have been Madden 04, good safeties would not let players get behind them or would at least do their damnedest to prevent it. Let me see if I can explain.

In Madden 08, defenders almost always run a "pure pursuit" angle, that is they run directly at the target player instead of running "lead pursuit" ie going after the target on an intercept course. You can see this most dramatically when trying to return a punt, when the opposite is true and the entire coverage team is on MISSILE MODE that is to say maximum intercept capabilities with perfect pursuit angles

This makes it physically impossible for the safety to play his appropriate role of "don't get beat deep" because even setting aside their limited reaction to the streaking receiver they don't run in a way to get in front of the guy. The best defenses with the best defensive backs even still seem to do this to some degree but instead of trail coverage they literally run the route for the receiver except slightly ahead of him

[jose21crisis]

A lot of it has to do with the nerfing of defensive player pursuit angles in Madden 08. I remember back in, must have been Madden 04, good safeties would not let players get behind them or would at least do their damnedest to prevent it. Let me see if I can explain.

In Madden 08, defenders almost always run a "pure pursuit" angle, that is they run directly at the target player instead of running "lead pursuit" ie going after the target on an intercept course. You can see this most dramatically when trying to return a punt, when the opposite is true and the entire coverage team is on MISSILE MODE that is to say maximum intercept capabilities with perfect pursuit angles

This makes it physically impossible for the safety to play his appropriate role of "don't get beat deep" because even setting aside their limited reaction to the streaking receiver they don't run in a way to get in front of the guy. The best defenses with the best defensive backs even still seem to do this to some degree but instead of trail coverage they literally run the route for the receiver except slightly ahead of him

There are 3 ways I think it works on the game. On standard defensive coverage, the defender just tries to stay close to the receiver, not necessarily "don't get beat deep" which is a problem. On plays BEHIND the line of scrimmage, the AI has the players "Chase" the ball carrier. the "Chase" action is probably for the AI to use the proper pursuit/intercept angle, maybe based on Awareness. Then, on plays BEYOND the line of scrimmage, the AI simply has the players get to the ball carrier. The problem here is that "Get to the ball carrier" uses a simple logic, shortest path to the BC. This means incorrect pursuit angles and horribly missed diving tackles.

This affects punt returns like you said. At the start of the play, it uses the BEHIND the LOS logic, the AI "Chase" the BC, AKA the punter. Then the ball is off. However, instead of switching to the BEYOND the LOS logic and use straight lines to get to the BC, they remain using the BEHIND the LOS logic, using perfect pursuit angles to get to the return man. The interesting part is that I don't think kickoff returns are affected by this. In KO returns, they seem to use the standard BEYOND the LOS logic.

As for DBs running the receiver routes slightly ahead of them, this is usually with 92+ AWR DBs, which the game labels "Containment Corners". They react faster (Read: Instantly) to receivers making cuts on their routes, which makes it harder to complete passes to the receivers they are covering. This also happens if you put the game on All-Madden, where every DB turns into Darrelle Revis or Champ Bailey in their prime and run exactly the same route as the receiver.

[henshao]

Thanks I see you are more aware of the problem than I am. Other than the fact I played on All-Madden probably for one quarter, once, and was too disgusted by the telepathic defensive backs to ever try it again