Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Sliders, settings and other adjustments to make the game more realistic.
moonbax
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Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby moonbax » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:56 am

As I'm going through the descriptions of Player Roles/Weapon I'm trying to determine if any of these roles can be used to "fix" certain issues with the game relating to the AI's decision-making; who knows, maybe the game can't work as intended without them, so I'm looking into it. The QB roles are the obvious ones that will impact the AI's decision-making the most, but I do notice there might be a couple of interesting non-QB Roles that might help the AI with appropriate football strategy. These are the ones for WRs/TEs:


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IV. Wide Receivers/Tight Ends - WR/TE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

---------------
Star: Go To Guy
---------------

The star icon represents the best players in the NFL. These players have the
skills and attributes to fit into more than just one weapon category.

The Go To Guy is a receiver with the hands and speed to make him a threat
running any type of route. These players are the favorite targets of their QBs
and can beat the defense in a number of different ways. It most cases it takes
more than one defender to cover a Go To Guy and this can open up the field for
the rest of the team.

---------------------------
Foot with Wing: Deep Threat
---------------------------

The speed icon indicates that this player has exceptional speed for his
position.

The Deep Threat is a receiver who is able to get behind the defense and get
open using his speed. These are some of the fastest players in the NFL and
defenders are forced to play off of them out of respect for their uncanny
speed.

-------------------------
Hand: Possession Receiver
-------------------------

Possession Receivers are known for having reliable hands and making big catches
when their team needs them. They may not be blazing fast but precise route
running
and the ability to shield defenders usually make them the favorite
target
of their QB.

These players are best at running routes that are designed to trick the defense
or create passing lanes. Speed routes are not as effective for these players
since they lack the ideal speed to get behind the coverage.



Unfortunately there seems to be a little redundancy in the description of the Go-To Guy and the Possession Receiver, with both descriptions stating that they will be the favorite target of the QB. Other than that, what I gather from these descriptions is:


Go-To Guy:

*QB will target this receiver a greater proportion of the time than they would without this designation(?)
*AI defense will attempt to double/triple cover this receiver a greater proportion of the time? At least, that's what I'm gathering from the description

Deep Threat:

*Affects the AI defense's strategy to prevent against this receiver getting behind the coverage? How would this manifest itself in the game?
*Might influence how often the defense uses certain Man or Zone formations?
*Might influence what type of subpackages (Quarter, etc.) the AI uses?
*Might influence which DB is assigned to which receiver?
*Likely to affect average receiving yardage by this receiver(?)

Possession Receiver:

*QB will target this receiver a greater proportion of the time than they would without this designation(?)
*"Reliable" to me indicates that catching ability is important to the programming of this Role in some way
*Possible in-game adjustment made to Catching or Awareness of the receiver in certain situations by the AI?? Awareness in particular could lead to more precise route running
*The "Game Manager" QB role increases both Throwing Accuracy and Awareness on 3rd Down passing plays, is it possible that some kind of analogous attribute manipulation could be occurring with this role?



I wish that the descriptions were a little more concrete with how the programming is affected by these roles. Does anyone else have other interpretations for how these roles would affect both offense and defense decision-making by the AI? And based on that interpretation, can you provide a list of certain NFL players who you think would affect opponent's strategy the most in Madden 08? For example:



Go-To Guy (Influences both offensive? and defensive strategy in a specific way)


Deep Threat (Influences defensive strategy in a specific way)
DeSean Jackson
Julio Jones
Jordy Nelson
Mike Wallace

Possession Receiver (Influences offensive strategy in a specific way?)

Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

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Raston
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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby Raston » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:35 pm

I think for mod XIV we removed the player roles/weapons because many felt they were producing inflated stat results. The AI will add them in season 2 of Franchise.

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby moonbax » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:35 pm

Raston wrote:I think for mod XIV we removed the player roles/weapons because many felt they were producing inflated stat results. The AI will add them in season 2 of Franchise.


Plus apparently if the game tries to re-assign any Roles it could cause issues with crashing or other franchise/roster issues. Therefore, only roles that will not be re-assigned by the CPU should be discussed. Problem is I don't know which those would be.

I also am not sure these roles make enough of a difference to be worth the potential issues anyway.

Here are the receiving stats from four 60:00 trials ran with the same offense/defense/spl sliders, but with maybe a +1 or -1 difference in Aggression or Fatigue settings made between trials, as I was testing for reproducible game quality consistent with the NFL from this specific matchup (Chargers/Chiefs). These trials all ended up producing NFL quality performance according to the criteria I was using. I made Travis Kelce a "Go To Guy" in one of the trials:


Code: Select all

RECEIVING                      REC  YDS   AVG LONG   TD DROP  YAC


#1 Travis Kelce                     5   49   9.7   21    0    0    1

#2 Travis Kelce                     1   10  10.0   10    0    1    7

#3 Travis Kelce                     4   69  17.2   32    0    2   11

#4 Travis Kelce                     3   38  12.6   19    0    0    0



Which one is the one where Kelce was a "Go To Guy"?

It's #3, which does have a little more yardage, but because I can't be sure how many times he was actually targeted it is difficult to glean any meaningful correlation with these stats and his role as the "Go To Guy" for Smith.

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby Littleware » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:41 pm

The roles do play a bigger role in player performance. I've updates all of (QB, RB, WR, TE, DE, DT, LT and a few Kickers) roles in a franchise. The results were very exciting. I had the first game where a RB ran for over 100 yds against me, while not playing on "All-Madden"! The QB's that I updated to "Precision Passer, Scrambler, Game Manager, Cannon Arm) made more plays using those attributes. The running-backs that are labeled "Elusive, Power, Speed" make more moves according to the labeL. Go-To WR's were targeted more, but "possession WR's got the touches when (2nd 12 or 3rd & 9) and the "Deep Threat" speed WR's are going deep and making plays also! Titan's ran two WR Reverses in one game. I got caught "looking" while a QB in Wildcat formation threw a bomb over my head.

The roles add more player animations to the games as well. I'm seeing Power RB's auto trucking when close to contact, falling forward when getting tackled. Elusive backs made at least 4 jukes as he hit the hole. Trash talk between plays is funny, in-fighting on defense when their getting hammered and can't stop the offense. I am going to continue to update the roles to all of the players in the franchise. Cpu v. cpu "Get your popcorn"!

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby moonbax » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:52 pm

How about the Return Specialist role? Gonna add those? I think that'll make the game more realistic (and entertaining). I think I'm going to make nearly all of these guys Return Specialists because I do not get the KR/PR averages I should:

moonbax wrote:
-----------------------------------
Arrow with 3 X's: Return Specialist
-----------------------------------

This player is considered a Return Specialist.

This role will be removed when the player averages 15 yards or less per kick
return or 5 yards or less per punt return for the season.

This role increases the player's value 12%.

During a return, this player will receive AWR +3, AGI +2, ACC +2, and BTK +2.

His blockers will receive RBK +2 while his opponents receive TAK -2
.



I have gone through ourlads.com's depth charts for each NFL team and I have compiled all of the starting returners, plus a few others, into this list of potential "Return Specialists."

ARI: Patrick Peterson (PR), Kerwynn Williams (KR), David Johnson*
ATL: Eric Weems
BAL: Ladarius Webb (PR), Kaelin Clay (KR), Keenan Reynolds*
BUF: Reggie Bush*, Dri Archer*, Javier Arenas*, Robert Woods (PR), Walter Powell (KR)
CAR: Ted Ginn Jr. (PR), Joe Webb*† (PR, KR), Fozzy Whittaker (KR)
CHI (PR, KR): Marc Mariani, Deonte Thompson
CIN: Brandon Tate (PR, KR), Adam Jones (PR, KR)
CLE: Tramon Williams (PR), Raheem Mostert (KR), Corey Coleman*
DAL: Lucky Whitehead
DEN: Emmanuel Sanders (PR, KR), Jordan Norwood* (PR)
DET: Jeremy Kerley*, Golden Tate (PR), Ameer Abdullah (KR)
GB: Micah Hyde (PR), Randall Cobb (PR), Jeff Janis (KR), Ty Montgomery*
HOU: Keith Mumphery (PR, KR), Cecil Shorts (PR)
IND: Quan Bray
JAX: Rashad Greene*, Nick Marshall (PR, KR), Denard Robinson (KR)
KC: De'Anthony Thomas*, Frankie Hammond (PR), Knile Davis (KR)
LA (PR, KR): Tavon Austin, Benny Cunningham
MIA: Jarvis Landry (PR), Damien Williams (KR), Jakeem Grant*
MIN (PR, KR): Marcus Sherels, Cordarrelle Patterson
NE: Danny Amendola* (PR), Keshawn Martin (PR, KR), Matthew Slater (KR)
NO: C.J. Spiller (PR, KR), Brandin Cooks (PR), Marcus Murphy (PR, KR)
NYG: Dwayne Harris (PR, KR), Bobby Rainey*
NYJ: Jeremy Ross*, Eric Decker (PR), Kenbrell Thompkins (KR)
OAK (PR, KR): Travis Carrie, Taiwan Jones
PHI (PR, KR): Darren Sproles, Josh Huff
PIT: Antonio Brown (PR), Markus Wheaton (KR), Demarcus Ayers*
SD: Travis Benjamin* (PR), Javontee Herndon (PR, KR)
SEA: Tyler Lockett
SF: Bruce Ellington
TB: Adam Humphries
TEN: Harry Douglas (PR), Antonio Andrews (KR), Dexter McCluster*
WAS (PR, KR): Jamison Crowder, Rashad Ross
Free Agents: Josh Cribbs, Devin Hester, Jacoby Jones, Marcus Thigpen


*Suggestions not currently listed on ourlads.com, includes 2016 projections: http://www.4for4.com/fantasy-football/2 ... pth-charts
†Requires that Joe be switched from QB to WR in Madden rosters

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby Littleware » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:29 pm

I have modified the roles for the "Return Specialist", the "Clutch Kicker" roles as well as the OL and DL positional roles. Returners are not being pummeled nor fumbling at the point of contact. They are juking and making better plays. The OL blocking is better allowing backs to get better yard per carry. Punt are rarely shanked! The QB's are making plays in the pocket, shedding would-be tacklers and making throws down field. Defensive roles are giving similar results on the other side. I can't find an updated list of roles, it would be great to have them in line with the Madden 17 roles!

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby rogerjinx » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:07 pm

Littleware wrote:I have modified the roles for the "Return Specialist", the "Clutch Kicker" roles as well as the OL and DL positional roles. Returners are not being pummeled nor fumbling at the point of contact. They are juking and making better plays. The OL blocking is better allowing backs to get better yard per carry. Punt are rarely shanked! The QB's are making plays in the pocket, shedding would-be tacklers and making throws down field. Defensive roles are giving similar results on the other side. I can't find an updated list of roles, it would be great to have them in line with the Madden 17 roles!


If someone can provide a list of Madden 17 roles for ever player, then I can integrate it using its counterpart roles in my next release.

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Re: Effects of WR & TE Role/Weapon on AI Strategy? ("Deep Threat", etc.)

Postby jose21crisis » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:34 pm

You should be aware that Player Weapons are really a representation of the player's stats at the end of the season. In the case of WRs and TEs, the key stats are Speed, Acceleration and Catching. The 3 best examples I have (At least from my experience) are Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes and Randy Moss from my Steelers Season 2 franchise.

Hines Ward's stats right now are 85 Speed, 86 Acceleration and 99 Catching. He's considered a Possession Receiver.

Santonio Holmes packs a 94 Speed, 96 Acceleration and 89 Catching (Technically 90, but that's on Week 12. He had 89 at the end of Season 1). He is considered a Deep Threat Receiver.

Finally, Randy Moss, who has caused me a lot of problems every time I play against the Pats. Has 95 Speed, 92 Acceleration and 99 Catching. Technically speaking, he's both a Possession Receiver (+90 Catching) and a Deep Threat Receiver (+90 Speed and Acceleration), due to that he is simply called a Go-To Guy.

Player Weapons simply show "Which player has +90 of a certain stat", and that allows the AI to alter it's play calling to try to counter that. At least that's how I look at it. The AI has been quite distracted trying to cover Santonio deep and Hines close that an undrafted rookie called DeSean Jackson has been wreaking havoc.
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