What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Sliders, settings and other adjustments to make the game more realistic.
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thegoldendragonx
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby thegoldendragonx » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am

MikeWest502 wrote:
thegoldendragonx wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
I can't answer either of those questions. I have never in all of Madden PC 08's existence simmed a game! My sliders are geared to cpu v. cpu or human v. cpu! I'm sure other members can answer the question or just give your inquiries a shot and test them for the results! Share your findings with the community!


Are you saying you've never simmed a game?


Yes, never on Madden 08 PC, I control all 32 teams, go through weekly game plan, set depth charts and watch cpu v cpu! I normally play 3-4 games weekly in my franchises! No sim! Not a game, a week, or a frinkn season! There's no fun in sim imo!

When Madden 08 PC came out, too many gamers complained about the sim stats being way over the top. I never played a full game on All-Madden, and NEVER simmed a franchise game. I've simmed on Madden PS2 recently because I wanted to get to the off-season, import NCAA 08 draft classes (which I never did in the past), draft my favorite players & relocate teams! After that first season was over I went back to my cpu v cpu and set the cpu v. cpu games to 3 minutes to minimize the exaggerated stats, but never simmed one game on PC 08 and won't sim another on PS2! Imo, sim games suck and only give you stats! I have no use for sim!


Where do you find the time to play out all those games?

Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

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MikeWest502
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby MikeWest502 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:20 pm

thegoldendragonx wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
thegoldendragonx wrote:
Are you saying you've never simmed a game?


Yes, never on Madden 08 PC, I control all 32 teams, go through weekly game plan, set depth charts and watch cpu v cpu! I normally play 3-4 games weekly in my franchises! No sim! Not a game, a week, or a frinkn season! There's no fun in sim imo!

When Madden 08 PC came out, too many gamers complained about the sim stats being way over the top. I never played a full game on All-Madden, and NEVER simmed a franchise game. I've simmed on Madden PS2 recently because I wanted to get to the off-season, import NCAA 08 draft classes (which I never did in the past), draft my favorite players & relocate teams! After that first season was over I went back to my cpu v cpu and set the cpu v. cpu games to 3 minutes to minimize the exaggerated stats, but never simmed one game on PC 08 and won't sim another on PS2! Imo, sim games suck and only give you stats! I have no use for sim!


Where do you find the time to play out all those games?


We elephants only sleep 3 hours nightly! :D

Theov
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby Theov » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:55 am

MikeWest502 wrote:
thegoldendragonx wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
I can't answer either of those questions. I have never in all of Madden PC 08's existence simmed a game! My sliders are geared to cpu v. cpu or human v. cpu! I'm sure other members can answer the question or just give your inquiries a shot and test them for the results! Share your findings with the community!


Are you saying you've never simmed a game?


Yes, never on Madden 08 PC, I control all 32 teams, go through weekly game plan, set depth charts and watch cpu v cpu! I normally play 3-4 games weekly in my franchises! No sim! Not a game, a week, or a frinkn season! There's no fun in sim imo!

When Madden 08 PC came out, too many gamers complained about the sim stats being way over the top. I never played a full game on All-Madden, and NEVER simmed a franchise game. I've simmed on Madden PS2 recently because I wanted to get to the off-season, import NCAA 08 draft classes (which I never did in the past), draft my favorite players & relocate teams! After that first season was over I went back to my cpu v cpu and set the cpu v. cpu games to 3 minutes to minimize the exaggerated stats, but never simmed one game on PC 08 and won't sim another on PS2! Imo, sim games suck and only give you stats! I have no use for sim!


Wow. You play ALL the games in your franchises? I only play my team's games, but after a few seasons, I start a new one. Or take another team and watch the CPU mismanage my old team :D

You never played on All-Madden? Why not, it's not that hard - or do you restrict yourself somehow?
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MikeWest502
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby MikeWest502 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:51 pm

Theov wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
thegoldendragonx wrote:
Are you saying you've never simmed a game?


Yes, never on Madden 08 PC, I control all 32 teams, go through weekly game plan, set depth charts and watch cpu v cpu! I normally play 3-4 games weekly in my franchises! No sim! Not a game, a week, or a frinkn season! There's no fun in sim imo!

When Madden 08 PC came out, too many gamers complained about the sim stats being way over the top. I never played a full game on All-Madden, and NEVER simmed a franchise game. I've simmed on Madden PS2 recently because I wanted to get to the off-season, import NCAA 08 draft classes (which I never did in the past), draft my favorite players & relocate teams! After that first season was over I went back to my cpu v cpu and set the cpu v. cpu games to 3 minutes to minimize the exaggerated stats, but never simmed one game on PC 08 and won't sim another on PS2! Imo, sim games suck and only give you stats! I have no use for sim!


Wow. You play ALL the games in your franchises? I only play my team's games, but after a few seasons, I start a new one. Or take another team and watch the CPU mismanage my old team :D

You never played on All-Madden? Why not, it's not that hard - or do you restrict yourself somehow?


You're right, it's not hard at all, but it's cheesy as hell! I've played All-Madden in the past and even on Madden 20 versus my friends and cpu! IMO and other's (my friends) agreed with me! All-Madden is like God-Mode for the CPU players. All-Madden buffs every player for the game. A player rated 67 will play like a player rated 87. Even with sliders adjusted, All-Madden doesn't have that "realism effect" in the game. Mistakes like fumbles, dropped passes and penalties become rare and mostly non-existent when playing on All-Madden!

Also, I don't use spam/money plays to maintain an advantage over the CPU. My friends and I decided long ago that All-Madden takes the realism out and replaces it with "Oh my GOD" & "That's some Bu## S*&%"!

One recent example, we were playing All-Madden on Madden 19 PS4. I had my friend 3rd & 17. I called a cover zero defense and sent the house. His QB had a 46 break tackle rating, which is almost "0" in Madden. He snapped the ball, my guys got there quick. But his QB ducked under the first hit and while being hit from a second defender, launched a 47 yard bomb on me and scored! We both were laughing (me more crying complaining) and agreed that it was superman like, over the top and a sack should have happened, resulting in him punting the ball!

We play 3 Maddens, 08 & Madden 20 on PC and Madden 19 on PS4! I also play Madden 08 PS2 and NCAA 08 also on PS2 solo! Also a side note, Madden 20 PC can be purchased for $14.99 now. And when Madden 21 drops below $20 sometime early next year, I will be making the purchase! And probable stop playing Madden 08 entirely!

But yeah, no All Madden for me!

solarkev
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby solarkev » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:29 pm

In another couple of threads in the playbook sub-forum, I couldn't see the effect of coaches aggressive / conservative ratings. BUT, my testing was using "Exhibition mode". Is it possible that coach ratings only kick in using "Franchise mode"? Or, that they only work when simming?

MikeWest502
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby MikeWest502 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:03 am

solarkev wrote:Is it possible that coach ratings only kick in using "Franchise mode"? Or, that they only work when simming?


I think that's about right. There are no Coaches Options to modify until you go into franchise play. And just remember that in exhbition, the teams use the playbooks the HC has assigned to him. In franchise, teams use the playbooks the OC's and DC's have assigned. Same for Pass/Run Ratio. Also when human plays vs cpu, or cpu vs cpu, the sliders are in full effect.

solarkev
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby solarkev » Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:21 pm

I tested with a franchise using test playbooks from my earlier testing. I had the coach and defense coordinator set for very high conservative. I also did additional testing with head coach and offense coordinator set to 90% run. I could see no effect at all! On defense, tags were chosen as I saw in earlier testing and the plays selected seemed to be random within the tag (play type didn't seem to be used). On offense, pass was used about 70% of the time; ironically, this was high compared to the play distribution in the playbook.

Realize, that all my testing is based on the premise that "ask Madden" is the same as what the AI would use.

My testing is very close to what Ben75 found in 2014. I think that I added to the understanding of defense tags a little bit, probably because my playbooks included many more plays than Ben used and maybe I played more games than he did on the defense side of the ball. Ben75 speculated that the coach sliders may affect play selection, but I could find no evidence that this was so. His method could not test for this, but my method should have been able to see this effect.

I'm forced to conclude (unless someone can show how this testing is flawed or incomplete) that the AI choses tags on offense based on down/distance and sometimes score and play clock without regard to play type or formation. The defense chooses tags based on down/distance, offense formation (except on first down and as long as the offense playbook has proper SETT values), and sometimes score and play clock. Once a tag is chosen on either offense or defense, the AI seems to select a play randomly within that tag number.

One more point. I've read many posts where Maddeners have the impression that the coach sliders are affecting the AI. Was this actually so? Are people projecting their hopes about how the AI works and not seeing how it actually works? Could the coach sliders work only for simulation and not user against AI? Or...(and I hope this is true), my testing is missing something. But what???

lorak
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Re: What does Aggressive and Conservative do in Coach Options?

Postby lorak » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:59 am

In Madden 13 PS Vita, I found a few dat files linked to play calling, accepting penalties, kicker range, calling time outs and audibles on offense and defense. I guess there is something similar in Madden 08 PC.

As an example, have a look at the image below. Play calling logic on offense (left) and the logic to accept penalties on offense (right). Both are dependent on the coach aggressiveness. A high aggressive rating on offense increases the probability of going for it on 4th down or to try to score TD in general in different game situations.
Coach agressiveness.png
Coach agressiveness.png (637.31 KiB) Viewed 94 times


Logic in those dat files I found, kind of confirm what was said before:
jose21crisis wrote:When it comes to defense, coaches that lean towards "Aggressive" are more likely to use base packages (3-4, 4-3 and 46), man coverage and blitzes. "Conservative" leaning coaches are more likely to use subpackages, zone coverages and more players dropping back.

On offense it is tougher. Coaches that lean towards "Aggressive" are more willing to improvise (Ignoring their Pass/Run Ratio), use shorter passes and more willing to take risks (Like long, LONG FGs if the setting is too high)

At least, that's what I've noticed.


Interestingly, I have not found anything explicitly linked to coach aggressiveness on defense in those dat files, :o


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