Model / TMdl Editing

Technical discussion of development of third-party apps.
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trey31
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:38 pm

arden05 wrote:
StingRay68 wrote:I changed the material texture used (at the corners of the stadium) to jumbotron, also had to change the texture used with the models to jumbotron, and the newer area of the tmdl called 'Swap' which has something to do with software processing. Had to add those models to the same process that the other 2 jumbotrons were using. Some of this I added into the editor already, a couple things I did by hand with a hex editor.
I will update the editor code to handle all that, I just wanted to make sure it was going to work before I spent the time fixing the code.

I did not add new models to the stadium. I believe that can be done, but that is a lot more work to do for the model editor and a better mmap editor is going to be needed too.

As an example, if someone wanted to make neyland stadium, and wanted the seating sections in the stadium to have the white and orange checkerboard pattens. The model would have to be changed so that the sections that were to be white would have to be separated from the orange sections and each would have its own model. The mmap section would also have to be changed so that there were 2 crowd textures, people wearing mostly white colors and people wearing mostly orange. I'm not sure that is possible with the currently available mmap editors?

Wow :o This sounds like a HUGE breakthrough is on the horizon. What would this potentially mean for player models? Can some of the same methods used in stadium editing apply? Or is that a whole other issue/project? Thanks for everything you've done so far Sting ;)


Whole nother beast. There is a lot of what directdraw and wavefront .obj call "face data" that is currently unknown. Tells 3D programs to draw surfaces/mesh (the surface that textures get applied to) at specific points between specific vertex locations.

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StingRay68
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:38 am

Player models are going to have to wait. Once I get enough options included to be able to do stadiums more easily, I will look at the player models.
Yes, some of the same methods can be used to edit some of the player model geometry.
Right now there are 2 sections of data in the player models that I'm unsure about, so that takes time to research.
Face files will have to be looked into as well.
EA/Tiburon has their own custom way of storing things.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:24 am

I will try to support importing models an option, but there are several conditions I would like satisfied.
I would also ask for other opinions here as well.
Using the field logos as an example, their coordinates are based on actual field yardage. Im not sure if the stadiums are also based on that, but it looks likely.

Any supported modeling software would need to be affordable, preferably free.
Modeling software would need to support exporting model data as CSV or something very easy for me to figure out how to get the values imported.
(Basically data saved as x,y,z for each coordinate)
I'm not going to spend time figuring out a specific format for saved files from any given modeling software. This is already taking a massive amount of time to research/develop.

(player/coach models - if this is going to happen, someone else needs to step up here and help research how these models are done in directx / direct3d. Specifically how it uses an underlying wire model for attaching the actual models that have textures applied to them. I'm not sure what the correct term for this would be...The file is calling this "Skel" or skeleton)

So given the above conditions, what 3d modeling software would be something that we, as a community, could make a standard for using to develop models? Also any other factors that might need to be considered?

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:43 pm

StingRay68 wrote:I will try to support importing models an option, but there are several conditions I would like satisfied.
I would also ask for other opinions here as well.
Using the field logos as an example, their coordinates are based on actual field yardage. Im not sure if the stadiums are also based on that, but it looks likely.

Any supported modeling software would need to be affordable, preferably free.
Modeling software would need to support exporting model data as CSV or something very easy for me to figure out how to get the values imported.
(Basically data saved as x,y,z for each coordinate)
I'm not going to spend time figuring out a specific format for saved files from any given modeling software. This is already taking a massive amount of time to research/develop.

(player/coach models - if this is going to happen, someone else needs to step up here and help research how these models are done in directx / direct3d. Specifically how it uses an underlying wire model for attaching the actual models that have textures applied to them. I'm not sure what the correct term for this would be...The file is calling this "Skel" or skeleton)

So given the above conditions, what 3d modeling software would be something that we, as a community, could make a standard for using to develop models? Also any other factors that might need to be considered?


3DS Max isn't free.

Maya 2017 is... complex to install on W10; extremely expensive unless you register for a free student account. Uses Akamai Netsession (Potentially Unwanted Program) that potentially is like a spyware-lite PUP as it monitors your network usage and does not allow you to view the data it is collecting. Something to consider.

Blender is free and open source, everyone seems to love it, it has unnecessarily complex mouse scroll wheel/3rd button interface. Based on what I've read about gregkwaste's work with NBA 2K series models and Blender, only certain blender builds can be used with his apps.

As for 3D model format, Wavefront .OBJ format is probably what we want to use. Basic vertex and face/mesh data, no fluff data, nothing proprietary, no compression, easily convertible from .CSV (see below), works with every 3D modeling software I've looked into, Proprietary 3D software models can be both converted from and to wavefront OBJ from within their own software (save as/import/export).

CSV conversion:
I opened a CSV file in Notepad++, Ctrl+F, click Replace tab, entered "," in Find What bar, entered " " (space) in Replace With bar, click Replace All. Saved as .OBJ file. End result was a working .OBJ file.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:13 am

Can't really consider using anything from AutoDesk as their pricing is likely to be unacceptable to most of our community.
I will have a look at blender since it is free.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Tue May 02, 2017 8:30 am

Trey31, is it possible for you to make a simple square with blender and then save it as an OBJ file so I can look at it to see what the "faces" part of the file is supposed to look like?
I looked at blender and of course it is pretty complicated. Honestly, I doubt I will ever make a model, so that part of the modding I'm not real interested in.

I made some changes so that exporting a model will try and save it in OBJ formatting, although I don't know what to do with the faces (I think it is what I am calling triangles in the editor)

Here is the latest version, do not use it to try and edit anything. I started making changes to various sections to allow editing. It should also allow viewing of player models now as well.
https://sabercathost.com/df9P/MoRE050217.zip

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Wed May 03, 2017 2:53 pm

StingRay68 wrote:Trey31, is it possible for you to make a simple square with blender and then save it as an OBJ file so I can look at it to see what the "faces" part of the file is supposed to look like?
I looked at blender and of course it is pretty complicated. Honestly, I doubt I will ever make a model, so that part of the modding I'm not real interested in.

I made some changes so that exporting a model will try and save it in OBJ formatting, although I don't know what to do with the faces (I think it is what I am calling triangles in the editor)

Here is the latest version, do not use it to try and edit anything. I started making changes to various sections to allow editing. It should also allow viewing of player models now as well.
https://sabercathost.com/df9P/MoRE050217.zip


Here is a simple cube and a quick basics of explaining the .obj

http://cs.wellesley.edu/~cs307/readings/obj-ojects.html

And these are the cube textures, which I still don't completely understand (I've had trouble doing anything outside of applying solid colors)

http://cs.wellesley.edu/~cs307/tw/objects/cube-textures.obj

---

Also not 100% sure, but I was reading about using CAD models and from what I understand they can be converted to .obj, along with an extension I don't recall that is also used for 3D printing.

Not exactly relevant, but if anyone has experience with CAD it might prove useful.

Unfortunately I studied a lot of agriculture sciences, so I can shoe a horse, weld, identify different varieties of wheat, and remove a bull's testicles. But I know nothing of this CAD nonsense, which I understand is now common study in high schools.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Thu May 04, 2017 7:33 am

Those examples didn't make sense to me, some of the faces were using the same color and in the face section they weren't using the same reference.

Have a look at this page, and specifically the section on texture mapped square.
http://www.fileformat.info/format/wavefrontobj/egff.htm

That seems to be the kind of data that is in the tmdl file and how it is used.
It's a tough task to be able to export this data into a usable OBJ file since we don't seem to have anyone on here that is familiar with how this stuff works.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Thu May 04, 2017 11:34 pm

StingRay68 wrote:Those examples didn't make sense to me, some of the faces were using the same color and in the face section they weren't using the same reference.

Have a look at this page, and specifically the section on texture mapped square.
http://www.fileformat.info/format/wavefrontobj/egff.htm

That seems to be the kind of data that is in the tmdl file and how it is used.
It's a tough task to be able to export this data into a usable OBJ file since we don't seem to have anyone on here that is familiar with how this stuff works.


After reading that section twice, I have now regressed in my understanding of obj files... -6 AWR :cry:

I think I'm leaning towards getting a reddit account to ask Q&A at r/3Dmodeling or r/blender

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Fri May 05, 2017 7:58 am

Well for now I will work on being able to add/delete coordinates for a given model.
Until we have a better understanding of how those vertexes and textures are supposed to be formatted for use in modeling software, any support for that will have to wait.


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