Model / TMdl Editing

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trey31
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:31 pm

I've been messing around with MoRE050217

I still haven't been able figure out why the triangle values don't translate to .obj "f" values when I enter them manually (they don't export with the geometry in MoRE so I enter them manually to test in 3D builder and 3DS). I get an error in 3D Builder and nothing renders in 3DS Max.

I had no clue what the Clst value could be, so I've been googling. I found this article/guide here that has information about Clst values as they relate to 3D objects.

From what I gather, what we are seeing as .ea3 (Electronic Arts 3d file??) extension could be a custom extension for what is a TDDD file format? According to a wiki, IFF was developed by Electronic Arts, and that is what TDDD and Imagine OBJ files are based on:
IFF (Interchange File Format) is a general-purpose binary file format introduced by Electronic Arts on the Commodore Amiga computer in 1985. It is sometimes known as IFF 85.
link


Here is another similar article about TDDD Imagine 3D object file format

And a wiki here and here about the file formats.


I put the first article into a .txt file and zipped it to preserve... I don't know how that page is still being hosted in 2017 when it was last updated in 1995??

Hopefully this gets us somewhere.
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

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StingRay68
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:53 am

Madden is not using a file format, this is more of a database type storage.
Let me try to explain this by using MMAP as an example.
We know that the mmap files are textures, but they do not follow any structure like a .bmp .jpg etc filetype does
It is a container that holds x amount of bitmaps and y amount of palettes. There is also info that is sort of like an index that tells where each bitmap and palette is inside the container and various info about the properties (width, height, # of colors)
Also there is info that will give a texture name if needed and which bitmaps and palettes are used for that texture.

The models are all directx/direct3d related, so you have a big list of vertices, a list of shapes and what vertices make up those shapes, and a list of how to apply textures to those shapes.
This isn't a case of you just haven't found the right 3d modeling software.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:48 am

StingRay68 wrote:The models are all directx/direct3d related, so you have a big list of vertices, a list of shapes and what vertices make up those shapes, and a list of how to apply textures to those shapes.
This isn't a case of you just haven't found the right 3d modeling software.


Just tried to figure out what Clst values are. Imagine 3D is the only thing I can find that uses them.

.OBJ can't work without f values (faces) so nothing can be drawn without them. They look like they should be the triangles value, but when I use triangle values (added by hand since they don't export) it doesn't draw anything in 3D Builder, 3DS Max, or Blender. The values don't align correctly. Sometimes there are error notifications, sometimes there are none but nothing gets drawn/rendered either way.

Without f values, there are no 3D models. Whether those are triangles or something else, I don't know, but without them there is no surface of an object.
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:04 pm

(edited)
Sorry, I responded to this earlier and just realized you may be talking about ONLY the clst data?
I have no clue about how obj files work.
No idea what clst is used for. The only files I remember it from was the player models. So in player models, there is the clst section of the model and the skel section that are pretty much unknown, although as suggested before skel is likely short for skeleton...but thats about as much as I can guess about it.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:03 pm

StingRay68 wrote:(edited)
Sorry, I responded to this earlier and just realized you may be talking about ONLY the clst data?
I have no clue about how obj files work.
No idea what clst is used for. The only files I remember it from was the player models. So in player models, there is the clst section of the model and the skel section that are pretty much unknown, although as suggested before skel is likely short for skeleton...but thats about as much as I can guess about it.


I am. I had no idea what it could be. After reading, it looks like it is a color value for each individual face (polygon/triangle/etc). The number must correspond with the total number of faces in an object. There are also Rlst and Tlst values (in an Imagine 3.0 object), which are Reflectivity and Transmission values.

It also says
This chunk appears in all custom (type 2 - axis) objects.
which leads me to believe it is a value that possibly isn't even utilized, as everything in Madden (from what I gather) renders with object surface textures.

As far as the value only being in player models, that might be due to them being type 2 - axis objects?

Edit: And Skel values are pretty straightforward (and probably shouldn't be changed or modified) They are the centerpoints of objects and are utilized for scaling (probably affects the in-game player model size sliders) and rotation, possibly relate to collision detection and/or clipping. Most likely locomotion as well.
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby KeepinItTeal » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:58 pm

StingRay68 wrote:Yes, we're getting more advanced on model editing.
I guess the scoreboard does look different, but that is not the answer. Keep looking...
(this is something custom that BelieverInTeal wanted to know if it was possible.)

Image


I can't believe I missed this thread!! If I could get my hands on that expanded scoreboard.. wow. :shock:

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby KeepinItTeal » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:35 pm

Is that expanded scoreboard for Everbank something we could get into the next update of the Mod? If I can be provided the graphics files I can update them so they would look very much like the real scoreboards in Everbank. I will be down there tomorrow snapping pictures while we beat the Seahawks!!

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby trey31 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:55 pm

trey31 wrote:I've been messing around with MoRE050217

I still haven't been able figure out why the triangle values don't translate to .obj "f" values when I enter them manually (they don't export with the geometry in MoRE so I enter them manually to test in 3D builder and 3DS). I get an error in 3D Builder and nothing renders in 3DS Max.

I had no clue what the Clst value could be, so I've been googling. I found this article/guide here that has information about Clst values as they relate to 3D objects.


I was wrong about my assumption that tmdl data contains TDDD formatted 3D model data.

CLST is definitely being used to color the surface of objects, and it is related to the Imagine 3.0 program (and .TDDD files), but it has nothing to do with the actual geometry data in tmdl files.

D3DX9 uses .X format, .X format does not require CLST, or any other surface color value. It can use it, but doesn't require it. It uses vt for texture mapping and does not require anything other than vertice, vt, and triangle data (mesh/surface/triangle/face) to locate the xyz positions, draw the surface, and apply the texture.

TDDD, OBJ, 3DS, 3DX, 3DM, STL, etc none of that matters. When the geometry went into the game files, it was exported from whatever format they used (TDDD) and parsed as .X format, DX9's native 3D model format.

Blender has import/export from/to .X capability however. So in the end, it doesn't matter what format we model in. As long as the data is imported as .X from the tmdl, and exported as .X before being imported into tmdl, it is irrelevant.

If the tmdl Triangle (Face/Mesh/Surface) values could be exported along with the other geometry data, modifying models is likely possible.

I need to find out exactly how .X files are formatted for the exported data, but it should be stored fairly close to the proper format, in regards to the order of data.

In addition to the above, SKEL values are usually an averaged centerpoint of the outer surface dimensions. They are used for expanding the player models in-game (the player build sliders). Leaving them as is likely would keep animations intact, as well as the build sliders. So not only are the static models for helmets and facemasks likely modifiable, the player models quite possibly are as well.


EDIT: There is a caveat to all of this. Every single model that is changed is going to break the vt texture rendering locations. What does that mean? Everything that gets modeled is going to have completely broken textures. Facemasks won't matter at all, but helmets would break. Torsos would break. That means uniforms, pladata, everything.

I could mod torsos, I could mod arms, I could mod helmets, I could mod facemasks... But for every model that is changed, every corresponding texture related to that model would also need to be changed. Possibly completely rebuilt from scratch. LIkely even... I walk on water, but only when it freezes. If we ever get to a point where things other than facemasks get modded, it will take a team of more than just one or two people to get it working...
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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby StingRay68 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:17 am

trey31 wrote:CLST is definitely being used to color the surface of objects, and it is related to the Imagine 3.0 program (and .TDDD files), but it has nothing to do with the actual geometry data in tmdl files.


The stored data for Clst is a table of 32bit values, so that would make sense

trey31 wrote:D3DX9 uses .X format, .X format does not require CLST, or any other surface color value. It can use it, but doesn't require it. It uses vt for texture mapping and does not require anything other than vertice, vt, and triangle data (mesh/surface/triangle/face) to locate the xyz positions, draw the surface, and apply the texture.

TDDD, OBJ, 3DS, 3DX, 3DM, STL, etc none of that matters. When the geometry went into the game files, it was exported from whatever format they used (TDDD) and parsed as .X format, DX9's native 3D model format.

Blender has import/export from/to .X capability however. So in the end, it doesn't matter what format we model in. As long as the data is imported as .X from the tmdl, and exported as .X before being imported into tmdl, it is irrelevant.

If the tmdl Triangle (Face/Mesh/Surface) values could be exported along with the other geometry data, modifying models is likely possible.

I need to find out exactly how .X files are formatted for the exported data, but it should be stored fairly close to the proper format, in regards to the order of data.

The format would help, but madden has a custom way to store all of that data. I doubt there is an easy way to import/export models to and from the tmdl.

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Re: Model / TMdl Editing

Postby KeepinItTeal » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:36 pm

StingRay, are these updates to Everbank something you could release or have available in the next update of the Mod?


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