Interesting info on PBAI values

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superben21
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby superben21 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:43 pm

JDHalfrack wrote:Just a little side note: I pulled out some of the other files in Gamedata.Dat (files 80 and beyond). They contain like mini playbooks that have the routes run in the passing drills and mini camp practices and things like that. Interesting, but not really helpful.

Not to sidetrack but... do you think it would be possible to edit mini camp drills? Say in the passing drill we could change what route the receiver is running? or something like that?
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

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JDHalfrack
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby JDHalfrack » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:48 pm

superben21 wrote:Not to sidetrack but... do you think it would be possible to edit mini camp drills? Say in the passing drill we could change what route the receiver is running? or something like that?


Based on what I've seen so far, I don't see why not! But, some of the drills it would be pointless to. Think about trying to pass through the rings when the WR is running a streak while the rings are designed for a slant, lol. Of course, who knows... maybe the rings are based on the routes. I haven't really tried.

JD

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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby Drizzt_13 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:25 pm

This is awesome stuff. Just taking a wild guess here but is there anything in the playbook files that affect the AI's tendency to use audibles (e.g. press coverage or back off)? Madden has no way t make press coverage the default for AI's when there are a lot of teams (especially cover 2 teams) that play it a lot. I'm also fairly convinced that its simply better anytime you call cover 2 to play press and I find playing against the AI on coach mode is getting a little to easy because it never uses things like that.

ianjones
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby ianjones » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:05 pm

I'm just starting to get into playbook editing, but I noticed some things to think about here, if you haven't tested them.

I noticed there are no values identified specifically for fourth and long, 4th and medium, or fourth and short. the computer may just use the same parameters as if it's going for a 3rd down conversion, or maybe tag #36 is 4th and long etc?

Also, there are no values yet defined for when the computer is in "4th quarter comeback mode" which I don't believe it steals from the 2 minute drill tags.

And finally, the computer will also read being down in the 4th quarter like this: Is it 4th quarter? If yes, then is the offense down by 3 or less? If yes, then is the offense inside the opposing 40 yard line (field goal range)? If the answer is yes to all of these questions, it will usually break out of 4th quarter comeback and go to running plays. This is most probably clock control run, but maybe it has a different value?

I didn't test anything extensively, but I made a test playbook to problem solve with. In the in-game editor, i chose 10 different formations that were easy for me to tell the difference between at a glance, i chose 1 pass play and 1 run play from each and created a playbook of 20 plays. Then i went into the playbook editor and gave each play a specific value unique to itself. This way i knew that if the computer chose a run play from the 3wr split back set, it was using value #1 etc. When there is more than one play in any given value, it is chosen randomly, but the computer does not choose an actual parameter randomly. As far as I can tell, it chooses the same parameter in every identical situation and if there is some deviance, then there was another trigger for a different parameter that took precedence.

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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby solarkev » Thu Oct 27, 2022 3:33 pm

I've been working on new playbooks lately, and have been wondering about the computer play calling. So, I decided to make a couple test playbooks (attached) where each play is given one and only one PBAI tag, while having a uniquely numbered name for easy recognition. I used a test playbook with the "ask Madden" feature to determine how the computer AI chose plays. This method is similar to Ben75's work from this older thread, but using many plays per PBAI tag instead of just one, as in his case. Since this turned out to be more or less a confirmation and maybe a bit more elaboration of his findings, I thought it best to report here in his thread so that everyone interested could evaluate and compare.
Findings:
1. As Ben75 indicated, the descriptions in Packfan's editor are not completely accurate. However, this does little to diminish the brilliance of his playbook IMHO.
2. I didn't come across (yet) every tag that Ben75 found, but my results are nearly the same as he indicated for most of the tags.
3. The tags are used based on down & yards to 1st down, field position, and in a few cases, score and time left in the half.
4. It looks like the computer selects a PBAI tag for a certain situation and then randomly selects a play with that tag.
5. If play type is used at all, it is secondary to random selection. This seems proven by comparing the performance of the two attached playbooks. The major difference between these test books is that the 1st down and second down tags (PBAI 38 and PBAI 6, respectively) are populated by >75% passes in the first and >75% runs in the second. In the first case, passes were selected overwhelmingly, while in the second runs were selected overwhelmingly, both roughly in proportion to the ratio of pass plays versus running plays.
6. Here is how the computer used the tags in my tests (3 full games).
For 1st down with 10-14 yards to go for 1st down, from about the 10 yard line to the opponent’s 20, PBAI 38 is used >95% of the time. The few other instances used PBAI 6.
For 2nd down with 1-14 yards to go, from about the 10 yard line to the opponent’s 20, PBAI 6 was used all the time.
For 3rd down with 0-3 yards to go, except near the opponent’s goal line, PBAI 1 or 40 was used.
For 3rd down with 4-8 yards to go, PBAI 7 was used.
For 3rrd down with 9 yards or greater to go, PBAI 8 was used.
For 1st or 2nd down In the red zone (opponent’s 20 to the 5), with more than 3 yards to go, PBAI 4 was used.
Inside the opponent’s 5, PBAI 3 was used.
With less than 2 minutes in the 1st half with the lead, I saw PBAI 13 used.
Late in the half and trailing the score, I saw PBAI 10 used in the final 2 minutes. While trailing more than a touchdown, I saw this tag used on second and third down starting around 5 minutes or so in the second half.
I saw PBAI 21 used a couple times in the final minute of the half while trailing in the score.
The computer always punted or tried a field goal on 4th down and always tried to kick the extra point (never went for 2).
No other tags were ever used in these 3 test games.
Conclusion: If making offense playbook PBAI tags, I would use all of Ben75's definitions (I'm assuming that his findings about PBAI 2, 5, 34, and 37 are also valid, though I never saw them used).
Feel free to play around with the attached playbooks used for testing). I hope I explained things clearly, but there is a lot of info here. So, please pepper me with questions or comments, if you are so inclined.
Attachments
LA Rams 2023 PBAI 2nd test.pbo
(191.19 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
LA Rams 2023 PBAI 1st test.pbo
(191.19 KiB) Downloaded 110 times

MikeWest502
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby MikeWest502 » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:30 pm

If you want Madden to really answer all of your questions regarding pbai tags, you'll need to expand you test. With your test, because you only have one play in each tag you'll get one answer every time. If 3rd-N-3 and I can only go left(one play to choose from), then that's the only result and doesn't give you the total scope of that scenario. I recommend you add at least one of each play type to the tags, then gauge the results.

1 - Playaction Deep Pass
1 - Playaction screen
1 - Playaction intermediate Pass
1 - Draw Run
1 - Outside Run
1 - Inside run
1 - Screen Pass
1 - Deep Pass
1 - Short pass
1 - Intermediate Pass
1 - Trick Play (Reverse, Flea Flicker or End Around)

With each AI tag having a defined group of plays to select from the results will be different from your first few tests. The results will vary per team, per coach philosophy/scheme, per coach aggressiveness and run/pass ratio. Those all also play a huge role in what plays are call and when.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Coach Knowledge also has an effect on play calling.

solarkev
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby solarkev » Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:32 pm

While I wasn't as systematic about play selection as you suggest, Mikewest502, I actually used many plays for each tag (take a look at the attached files). That is why I can conclude that the run / pass setting is not as important as the distribution of runs / passes in the play tag group. I also didn't see any predilection by the AI to choose certain types of plays; in my test, play selection looked completely random. For instance, the first down tag (PBAI 38) was used the most and every play in the group was eventually selected, some more than once, but it looked statistically random to me. However, there is no way to be sure, except I am convinced that if there are other play selection factors other than random selection from a certain tag, these factors are not very powerful, a tweak at most.

Also, I forgot to mention that on the defensive side, AI defense did not use SETT values for first down. For instance, the defense might come out with 6 DBs against a two TE singleback formation. I have impression that on other downs, SETT may have been used.

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TheRareButter
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby TheRareButter » Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:10 pm

I've updated the CSV file on PBE 2.5 to show the latest findings on offensive PBAI instead of the PBAI slots that were released with the editor, meaning that it now shows the new AGIR/PBAI tags when assigning plays.

Here's PBE 2.5:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Here's the updated CSV file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rESH7v ... sp=sharing

Just replace the OFFDefinitions file in the PBAI folder with this new one and you're good to go. :)

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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby TheRareButter » Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:48 am

I just extracted NFL Head Coach's GAMEDATA and the header file came with the AIGR tags directly from EA. HC uses Madden 06's engine and the play creator from Madden 2001 which is where these tags come from. idk if it helps or not but can't hurt. Here's the tags:

/*** EXPORT OF LIST TABLE: AI_Groups_Translated ***/

#define PLAYD_AIGR_COFG 0
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDNORM 0
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDTRIPSRUN 1
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSYDG 1
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSTOPCLOCK 2
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDPASS 2
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGL 3
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDKICKOFFRETURN 3
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDKICKOFFRETURNONSIDE 4
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CORZ 4
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COINSIDEFIVE 5
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDGOALRUN 5
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDNICRUN 6
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CONORMAL 6
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COMEDIUMYDG 7
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDGOALPASS 7
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDKICKOFFRETURNSAFETY 8
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COLYDG 8
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COPUNT 9
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDPUNTRETURNBLOCK 9
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDPASS3WR 10
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COCTIME 10
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COPUNTFAKEPUNT 11
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDTRIPSPASS 11
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDTRIPS 12
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COFGFAKEFG 12
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COWTIME 13
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDNICPASS 13
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDPUNTRETURN 14
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COKNEEL 14
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COKICKOFF 15
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDPUNTRETURNSAFE 15
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDFGBLOCK 16
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COKICKOFFONSIDE 16
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CORUN 17
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDFGSAFE 17
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDRUN 18
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COKICKOFFSAFETY 18
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COPUNTMAXPROTECT 19
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDRUN3WR 19
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDNICKEL 20
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COPASS 20
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COHAILMARY 21
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDDIME 21
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDGOALLINE 22
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGOALPASS 22
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSECONDSHORT 23
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDDEFHAILMARY 23
#define PLAYD_AIGR_CDDIMEPASS 24
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSECONDMED 24
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSECONDLONG 25
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COTHIRDSHORT 26
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COTHIRDMED 27
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COTHIRDLONG 28
#define PLAYD_AIGR_UNUSED_53 29
#define PLAYD_AIGR_UNUSED_54 30
#define PLAYD_AIGR_UNUSED_55 31
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSTOPCLOCKUSER 32
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSTOPCLOCKFAKEUSER 33
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGOFORITSHORT 34
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGOFORITMED 35
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGOFORITLONG 36
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COGOFOR2 37
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COFIRSTDOWN 38
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COSQUIB 39
#define PLAYD_AIGR_COPLAYACTION 40

solarkev
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Re: Interesting info on PBAI values

Postby solarkev » Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:59 am

I just realized that the previous post from TheRareButter is VERY interesting. It does seem to confirm Ben75's findings (including my additional information). Also, it fills in a couple of gaps.

This makes me wonder why some of the tags labeled with seemingly common situations are so so rarely used (sometimes seemingly not at all), like offense tags 26, 27, & 28. Maybe the game engine has been tweaked? Or maybe some trigger in the playbooks got changed? Or maybe head coach sliders?

I do think that we have complete or almost complete understanding of how to set the PBAI tags for offense and defense using Packfan's play editors.


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