Double Coverage

MikeWest502
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Re: Double Coverage

Postby MikeWest502 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:56 am

PatriotFan90 wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:Has anyone here ever gotten this figured out?


Since you're creating defenses using the playbook editor, why haven't you created groups of plays using each variation in testing? I think that would be the easiest way to find out.


1: Madden isnt consistent in these even when i have done limited testing comparing two of the variations in the past......

2: there are 15 different variations, why would i go to the trouble of testing all 15 of those if i can find someone here who has already figured it out?

As a side note, holy crap, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. I have been testing it the last few days trying to create man coverages just for trips HB strong and trips HB weak sets, and great day its a disaster.

I also tried creating double coverages, the player who is supposed to help double the WR just has a red broken line pre-snap and they basically just float around post-snap. I tried having the CB and the nickel have different transitions and values like suggested above, still didnt work. And whats interesting too is that if you add the stock double coverages to your playbook, like Double Z and Double X, they do the same thing.

Again, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. It would be the first thing i would overhaul if i were to recode/mod the game. It's a wonder people have not cheesed with trips and empty sets for years on this (who knows maybe they have)


First, creating defenses that use double coverage logic is simple to make. My double coverage plays work just fine. My FS or SS rotate to the WR they are assigned to without me having to do anything with the controller pre-snap. There are none in the Madden playbooks I've made because in Madden 19-21 I haven't seen one. You have to assign double coverage at the LOS.

As far as testing the logic, there are only 45 variations to test. We already know what the 15 transitions do when paired with shading "2", thanks to Petroleum. Now anyone interested can expand that info by pairing each of the remaining 3 shadings (0,1 and 3). You only need to test them with/against 4 basic routes In, Out, Go and Comeback/hitch/curl.

I will share this one thing, but you probably already know it. When the defense is in Cover Zero, Madden uses 10 transition with 0 shading. Since there is no safety help over the top, 0 shading logic tell the DB's to stay over the top and don't allow the WR past them. Soft coverage, no bump and run. You got this!

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PatriotFan90
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Re: Double Coverage

Postby PatriotFan90 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:40 pm

MikeWest502 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
Since you're creating defenses using the playbook editor, why haven't you created groups of plays using each variation in testing? I think that would be the easiest way to find out.


1: Madden isnt consistent in these even when i have done limited testing comparing two of the variations in the past......

2: there are 15 different variations, why would i go to the trouble of testing all 15 of those if i can find someone here who has already figured it out?

As a side note, holy crap, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. I have been testing it the last few days trying to create man coverages just for trips HB strong and trips HB weak sets, and great day its a disaster.

I also tried creating double coverages, the player who is supposed to help double the WR just has a red broken line pre-snap and they basically just float around post-snap. I tried having the CB and the nickel have different transitions and values like suggested above, still didnt work. And whats interesting too is that if you add the stock double coverages to your playbook, like Double Z and Double X, they do the same thing.

Again, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. It would be the first thing i would overhaul if i were to recode/mod the game. It's a wonder people have not cheesed with trips and empty sets for years on this (who knows maybe they have)


First, creating defenses that use double coverage logic is simple to make. My double coverage plays work just fine. My FS or SS rotate to the WR they are assigned to without me having to do anything with the controller pre-snap. There are none in the Madden playbooks I've made because in Madden 19-21 I haven't seen one. You have to assign double coverage at the LOS.
Then what are you doing that i am missing here? I gave the CB a value 10 (inside leverage pre-snap, inside leverage post-snap, and playing under the receiver according to the chart earlier in this thread) and a transition of 0. I gave the high safety to the side of the WR a value of 2 (head-up pre-snap, outside leverage post-snap and playing over top of the receiver).

As far as testing the logic, there are only 45 variations to test. We already know what the 15 transitions do when paired with shading "2", thanks to Petroleum. Now anyone interested can expand that info by pairing each of the remaining 3 shadings (0,1 and 3). You only need to test them with/against 4 basic routes In, Out, Go and Comeback/hitch/curl.
ONLY 45. Lol.

We'd have to know what to look for in the first place. What are the transitions for? What do they assign? And why only those 4 basic routes? Does not seem comprehensive enough to me.

I will share this one thing, but you probably already know it. When the defense is in Cover Zero, Madden uses 10 transition with 0 shading. Since there is no safety help over the top, 0 shading logic tell the DB's to stay over the top and don't allow the WR past them. Soft coverage, no bump and run. You got this!
That's what the values do, like value 2, that tells the defender to play outside leverage on the receiver post-snap, and to play over the top of them.

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Re: Double Coverage

Postby PatriotFan90 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:18 pm

PatriotFan90 wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:
1: Madden isnt consistent in these even when i have done limited testing comparing two of the variations in the past......

2: there are 15 different variations, why would i go to the trouble of testing all 15 of those if i can find someone here who has already figured it out?

As a side note, holy crap, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. I have been testing it the last few days trying to create man coverages just for trips HB strong and trips HB weak sets, and great day its a disaster.

I also tried creating double coverages, the player who is supposed to help double the WR just has a red broken line pre-snap and they basically just float around post-snap. I tried having the CB and the nickel have different transitions and values like suggested above, still didnt work. And whats interesting too is that if you add the stock double coverages to your playbook, like Double Z and Double X, they do the same thing.

Again, Madden 08's man coverage logic is absolute dogcrap. It would be the first thing i would overhaul if i were to recode/mod the game. It's a wonder people have not cheesed with trips and empty sets for years on this (who knows maybe they have)


First, creating defenses that use double coverage logic is simple to make. My double coverage plays work just fine. My FS or SS rotate to the WR they are assigned to without me having to do anything with the controller pre-snap. There are none in the Madden playbooks I've made because in Madden 19-21 I haven't seen one. You have to assign double coverage at the LOS.
Then what are you doing that i am missing here? I gave the CB a value 10 (inside leverage pre-snap, inside leverage post-snap, and playing under the receiver according to the chart earlier in this thread) and a transition of 0. I gave the high safety to the side of the WR a value of 2 (head-up pre-snap, outside leverage post-snap and playing over top of the receiver).

As far as testing the logic, there are only 45 variations to test. We already know what the 15 transitions do when paired with shading "2", thanks to Petroleum. Now anyone interested can expand that info by pairing each of the remaining 3 shadings (0,1 and 3). You only need to test them with/against 4 basic routes In, Out, Go and Comeback/hitch/curl.
ONLY 45. Lol.

We'd have to know what to look for in the first place. What are the transitions for? What do they assign? And why only those 4 basic routes? Does not seem comprehensive enough to me.

I will share this one thing, but you probably already know it. When the defense is in Cover Zero, Madden uses 10 transition with 0 shading. Since there is no safety help over the top, 0 shading logic tell the DB's to stay over the top and don't allow the WR past them. Soft coverage, no bump and run. You got this!
That's what the values do, like value 2, that tells the defender to play outside leverage on the receiver post-snap, and to play over the top of them.
@MikeWest502 Wellllllllllll? We're wait-ING!

MikeWest502
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Re: Double Coverage

Postby MikeWest502 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:14 pm

PatriotFan90 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
First, creating defenses that use double coverage logic is simple to make. My double coverage plays work just fine. My FS or SS rotate to the WR they are assigned to without me having to do anything with the controller pre-snap. There are none in the Madden playbooks I've made because in Madden 19-21 I haven't seen one. You have to assign double coverage at the LOS.
Then what are you doing that i am missing here? I gave the CB a value 10 (inside leverage pre-snap, inside leverage post-snap, and playing under the receiver according to the chart earlier in this thread) and a transition of 0. I gave the high safety to the side of the WR a value of 2 (head-up pre-snap, outside leverage post-snap and playing over top of the receiver).

As far as testing the logic, there are only 45 variations to test. We already know what the 15 transitions do when paired with shading "2", thanks to Petroleum. Now anyone interested can expand that info by pairing each of the remaining 3 shadings (0,1 and 3). You only need to test them with/against 4 basic routes In, Out, Go and Comeback/hitch/curl.
ONLY 45. Lol.

We'd have to know what to look for in the first place. What are the transitions for? What do they assign? And why only those 4 basic routes? Does not seem comprehensive enough to me.

I will share this one thing, but you probably already know it. When the defense is in Cover Zero, Madden uses 10 transition with 0 shading. Since there is no safety help over the top, 0 shading logic tell the DB's to stay over the top and don't allow the WR past them. Soft coverage, no bump and run. You got this!
That's what the values do, like value 2, that tells the defender to play outside leverage on the receiver post-snap, and to play over the top of them.
@MikeWest502 Wellllllllllll? We're wait-ING!


:lol: too funny. Waiting for? Bro, you told me that my simple testing method was not comprehensive enough. And you're not willing to put in the work testing the variations. I'm over here working on the Colts offense and Dallas new defense with much to do. I really don't have time nor interest in doing any reseach about the coverages. I know all I need to know. You could have easily created 44 plays with each variation (44 since you know what 10,0 does). Also, you could name the plays based on the variation to keep track of your testing.

You state you don't know what to look for. Well I used to play this game called "spot the difference" with my kids when they were young, so there you go. Create the plays, each play should have CB's using different variations, practice them, see what's different. take notes, report your findings or not. You technically should/could have been done by now.

I will quote the great Elguapo: "If you want something done here, you'll have to do it yourself, don't expect other's to help you". That IS NOT my philosophy, everyone here knows I help plenty. I've been itching to say that ever since he said it to me when I first started modding a couple years back.

P.S If you test against the four routes I listed, you'll have a clearer understanding of what the CB's do as far as playing soft or tight, and the leverage they apply based on the specific route and if they have Safety help. The newer Maddens don't have any defenses with man-double coverage. Cover 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 9 are what real NFL teams are playing. Bracket coverages in zones are what's being played by NFL teams if they want to double any one WR.

So stop sitting around over there scratching your ass and get testing. :lol: :P :lol: I'll be waiting for your results.

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Re: Double Coverage

Postby PatriotFan90 » Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:24 am

MikeWest502 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:Then what are you doing that i am missing here? I gave the CB a value 10 (inside leverage pre-snap, inside leverage post-snap, and playing under the receiver according to the chart earlier in this thread) and a transition of 0. I gave the high safety to the side of the WR a value of 2 (head-up pre-snap, outside leverage post-snap and playing over top of the receiver).

ONLY 45. Lol.

We'd have to know what to look for in the first place. What are the transitions for? What do they assign? And why only those 4 basic routes? Does not seem comprehensive enough to me.

That's what the values do, like value 2, that tells the defender to play outside leverage on the receiver post-snap, and to play over the top of them.
@MikeWest502 Wellllllllllll? We're wait-ING!


:lol: too funny. Waiting for? Bro, you told me that my simple testing method was not comprehensive enough. And you're not willing to put in the work testing the variations. I'm over here working on the Colts offense and Dallas new defense with much to do. I really don't have time nor interest in doing any reseach about the coverages. I know all I need to know. You could have easily created 44 plays with each variation (44 since you know what 10,0 does). Also, you could name the plays based on the variation to keep track of your testing.

You state you don't know what to look for. Well I used to play this game called "spot the difference" with my kids when they were young, so there you go. Create the plays, each play should have CB's using different variations, practice them, see what's different. take notes, report your findings or not. You technically should/could have been done by now.

I will quote the great Elguapo: "If you want something done here, you'll have to do it yourself, don't expect other's to help you". That IS NOT my philosophy, everyone here knows I help plenty. I've been itching to say that ever since he said it to me when I first started modding a couple years back.

P.S If you test against the four routes I listed, you'll have a clearer understanding of what the CB's do as far as playing soft or tight, and the leverage they apply based on the specific route and if they have Safety help.
Again, that's a lot of freaking work i dont have time for. If i find time, then cool.

The newer Maddens don't have any defenses with man-double coverage. Cover 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 9 are what real NFL teams are playing. Bracket coverages in zones are what's being played by NFL teams if they want to double any one WR.
The Patriots in real life run Cover 1 AND Cover 0 calls with true double teams, not brackets, on a selected receiver.

You said you managed to create double team calls in madden 08 with no problem, so how did you do it? As i said, i had the CB playing transition 0 and value 10 on receiver 1, and the safety playing transition 2 and value 2 on receiver 1. And still, the safety ends up floating. What's the issue? And also, again, when i add stock double coverages, like Double Z and Double X, to my custom playbook, and make no changes to the assignments, those do the same thing...Why is that?

MikeWest502
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Re: Double Coverage

Postby MikeWest502 » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:29 am

PatriotFan90 wrote:
MikeWest502 wrote:
PatriotFan90 wrote:@MikeWest502 Wellllllllllll? We're wait-ING!


:lol: too funny. Waiting for? Bro, you told me that my simple testing method was not comprehensive enough. And you're not willing to put in the work testing the variations. I'm over here working on the Colts offense and Dallas new defense with much to do. I really don't have time nor interest in doing any reseach about the coverages. I know all I need to know. You could have easily created 44 plays with each variation (44 since you know what 10,0 does). Also, you could name the plays based on the variation to keep track of your testing.

You state you don't know what to look for. Well I used to play this game called "spot the difference" with my kids when they were young, so there you go. Create the plays, each play should have CB's using different variations, practice them, see what's different. take notes, report your findings or not. You technically should/could have been done by now.

I will quote the great Elguapo: "If you want something done here, you'll have to do it yourself, don't expect other's to help you". That IS NOT my philosophy, everyone here knows I help plenty. I've been itching to say that ever since he said it to me when I first started modding a couple years back.

P.S If you test against the four routes I listed, you'll have a clearer understanding of what the CB's do as far as playing soft or tight, and the leverage they apply based on the specific route and if they have Safety help.
Again, that's a lot of freaking work i dont have time for. If i find time, then cool.

The newer Maddens don't have any defenses with man-double coverage. Cover 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 9 are what real NFL teams are playing. Bracket coverages in zones are what's being played by NFL teams if they want to double any one WR.
The Patriots in real life run Cover 1 AND Cover 0 calls with true double teams, not brackets, on a selected receiver.

You said you managed to create double team calls in madden 08 with no problem, so how did you do it? As i said, i had the CB playing transition 0 and value 10 on receiver 1, and the safety playing transition 2 and value 2 on receiver 1. And still, the safety ends up floating. What's the issue? And also, again, when i add stock double coverages, like Double Z and Double X, to my custom playbook, and make no changes to the assignments, those do the same thing...Why is that?


Yeah, When I first started making custom playbooks, I too used to get that red coverage line. What's funny is I used that same info about the man coverage transitions and shadings posted as a base of my studies, practiced a month or so later was successful. But I worked and tested many, many, many times until I got it right. No more red coverage error.

Most teams if not all of them have Cover Zero plays when they are in practically every formation set. But in Madden 19-21, none of the Cover Zero plays have any double coverage assignments. And in the Cover Zero plays, the 5 DB's who are defending the 5 WR's are playing man to man over the top leverage, like I stated already 10,0. Every other player in Cover Zero is blitzing.

As far as answering your question about why your double coverages aren't working properly, I can't answer that. If you're creating custom defensive playbooks that have 14 formations and 81 plays, then surely you can devote some time to create test a playbook with 44 plays for yourself to gain understanding of how the man coverages work. I currently have over 40 test playbooks in my collection.

I've been working on the updated playbooks project for over a year now. I've asked for help many times, got none. I assume you didn't reachout because you didn't have the time or interest in helping me. I'm from the south and I don't think it proper if I scratch your back, but you don't scratch mine. No offense. I'm sure if you find the time to do the research and testing, you'll find your answers.

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Re: Double Coverage

Postby NickyJ » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:20 pm

Just dropping in to say a post was deleted, and I don't want to see another one like it.

People like MikeWest, elguapo, and many others over the years have put a lot of their time in to learning the way the game works. The help they give freely is because they're quality members of the community who care. :D But if the gurus don't have time to venture down from their mountain shrines to guide you through every step of your own individual problems, take that as motivation to learn. At least be gracious for the wisdom they do take their time to share with you.

P.S., I'm a guru who ventured down from my mountain to share this wisdom. Be gracious. :mrgreen:
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