Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby moonbax » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:36 pm

Here are four teams that I don't have enough information at the moment to completely fill out some of their Quarter or other long yardage sets for; there are a few others that could use more detailed info regarding their Quarter sets, including HOU, NO, CHI, IND, and possibly TB, but these four are more urgent because I don't have a CB5 or FS3 listed, which would become slot corners in some Long Yardage sets if CB4=FS2 or ROLB=FS2, respectively. Fascinatingly, they are all Jim Schwartz and Dick LeBeau defenses (probably not a coincidence, each defensive scheme has a distinct pattern of SS/ILB behavior associated with it).

DET☾: Rafael Bush - CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5
PHI☾: Jaylen Watkins - CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5
PIT☾: Sean Davis - CB #4** and FS #2** (FS); ? - CB #5
TEN☾: Daimion Stafford - MLB #3 and LOLB #2* and CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5


I have their Big Dime Safeties at CB4/FS2, but these positions become inside linebackers in Quarter sets and CB5 would become the slot corner. So, essentially, I need to find out who the inside linebacker would be and put them at FS2, and put the slot corner at CB4/5 or FS3.

In the case of TEN, Stafford can be either an inside linebacker or slot corner in Long Yardage situations, so he could be CB4 only (primarily a slot corner), FS2 only (both inside linebacker and slot corner traits in long yardage situations), or both CB4 and FS2 (both inside linebacker and slot corner traits plus CB5 becomes primarily slot corner in long yardage situations). So I need to look at the behavior not just of these guys but who all of the ILBs and slot corners in long yardage sets are.

Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby ycleped » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:43 pm

moonbax wrote:Here are four teams that I don't have enough information at the moment to completely fill out some of their Quarter or other long yardage sets for; there are a few others that could use more detailed info regarding their Quarter sets, including HOU, NO, but these four are more urgent because I don't have a CB5 or FS3 listed, which would become slot corners in some Long Yardage sets if CB4=FS2 or ROLB=FS2, respectively. Fascinatingly, they are all Jim Schwartz and Dick LeBeau defenses (probably not a coincidence, each defensive scheme has a distinct pattern of SS/ILB behavior associated with it).

DET☾: Rafael Bush - CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5
PHI☾: Jaylen Watkins - CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5
PIT☾: Sean Davis - CB #4** and FS #2** (FS); ? - CB #5
TEN☾: Daimion Stafford - MLB #3 and LOLB #2* and CB #4 and FS #2 (SS); ? - CB #5


I have their Big Dime Safeties at CB4/FS2, but these positions become inside linebackers in Quarter sets and CB5 would become the slot corner. So, essentially, I need to find out who the inside linebacker would be and put them at FS2, and put the slot corner at CB4/5 or FS3.

In the case of TEN, Stafford can be either an inside linebacker or slot corner in Long Yardage situations, so he could be CB4 only (primarily a slot corner), FS2 only (both inside linebacker and slot corner traits in long yardage situations), or both CB4 and FS2 (both inside linebacker and slot corner traits plus CB5 becomes primarily slot corner in long yardage situations). So I need to look at the behavior not just of these guys but who all of the ILBs and slot corners in long yardage sets are.

When our CBs get hurt, Watkins gets moved to safety and replaces Jenkins who gets moved to CB.
// Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me //

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby moonbax » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:11 am

ycleped wrote:When our CBs get hurt, Watkins gets moved to safety and replaces Jenkins who gets moved to CB.

I do get what you are saying regarding who would rotate in at that position, and that will apply in some cases, but if Jenkins is already on the field as the SS then the issue is that the game would try to use both SS and CB5 in the same (Quarter) set if CB4=FS2. Both SS and CB5 would appear in the same snap. And if CB4 != FS2 then CB4 becomes the slot corner in Quarter sets and FS2 becomes the inside linebacker, so either way we need at least one more unique individual who isn't already used in Quarter sets (i.e. not an MLB, SS, FS, NCB, etc.) to completely fill out the list.


Alright, I notated the teams that still have some problem areas and the specific area with "(?)"; they are defenses that I need more info about regarding their Dime/Quarter sets.



EDIT

Some notes regarding the incomplete teams for future reference:


* HOU

Long Yardage ILBs: Cushing (MLB), Simon

Uses a lot of Big 1-4-6 Dime; it looks like a 3-2-6 dime but with Mercilus and Clowney as the "DE"s. Formations Subs can be used to replace the RE (right side of defense) in subpackages with Mercilus and the LE (left side of defense) in subpackages with Clowney in generally all cases.

The 3-1-7 Quarter set functions equivalently to a 3-2-6 Dime set when an Inside Linebacker is used at the FS #2 position. If the same substitution involving Mercilus and Clowney is performed using the Quarter set with a "Cover" Linebacker placed at FS #2 then this becomes a customized 1-4-6 Dime set with FS2 as the ILB and CB4 as slot corner.

AJ Bouye (CB) - looks like he was moved to outside corner in light of Kevin Johnson on IR; mostly RCB (of defense)
Eddie Pleasant (SS) - Big Dime Safety, slot corner in 1-4-6 dime sets; often assigned to backs/Flat in long yardage situations
Benardrick McKinney (ILB) - the RILB in base sets (MLB #2)


* DET

Long Yardage ILBs: Whitehead (MLB), Bynes

Miles Killebrew (SS) - Slot corner in 4-1-6 Dime
Rafael Bush (SS) - more of a Deep Safety, not used as often now as slot corner; also a rotational SS
Josh Bynes (OLB) - often found in long yardage situations with MLB Whitehead
Antwione Williams, Thurston Armbrister (OLBs) - probably appears more often in base sets

Their Big 4-1-6 used to feature Bush in the slot, but he appears to have been moved to more of a rotational SS with Killebrew as the Big Dime Safety. However, the frustrating thing about the Lions defense is that they just don't seem to use any kind of 3-4 looks in their subpackages at all, nothing that any of the Madden subpackages could be manipulated into representing. Therefore, no matter what you do to the 3-3-5/3-2-6/3-1-7 sets it's not really going to matter, it's all going to be technically wrong for the Lions and probably Philly's D (Schwartz defenses) as well.


* TEN

Long Yardage ILBs: Williamson (MLB), Orakpo, rarely Woodyard

Daimion Stafford (SS) - Big Dime Safety; both slot corner and ILB in Big 2-3-6 Dime sets, appears to switch "Force" player responsibility at times with MLB Williamson
Wesley Woodyard (ILB) - More of a base ILB; not used as much in their long yardage sets as I thought he might be
Brian Orakpo (ROLB/ILB) - Fascinatingly, it appears that he moves from outside linebacker to an Inside Linebacker on passing downs, very interesting detail that could help put a few pieces in place for TEN
Avery Williamson (MLB) - Looks to be the MLB both in base sets and subpackages; can even line up wide as a slot corner and cover backs (but I would say that this is Stafford's role a slight majority of the time)


* NO

Long Yardage ILBs: Laurinaitis (MLB), Ellerbe (or other Will Linebacker)

They use both a 3-2-6 Dime and a 4-1-6 Dime, and all of their dime sets use a Third (Big) Safety in the slot, usually on the strong side.

Kenny Vaccaro, Roman Harper (SS) - Safeties found at slot corner in their Big Dime sets
Dannell Ellerbe (or starting ROLB) - ILB in all dime sets; covers the weak side while a Big Safety (Vaccaro, Harper) most likely is the one who covers the strong side Flat in dime sets


* NYG

Long Yardage ILBs: Robinson (MLB), Casillas

They use both a 3-2-6 Dime and a 4-1-6 Dime, and none of their dime sets are "Big"; Hall and Rodgers-Cromartie, CBs, cover the slot in dime sets (It may come as a surprise but only a few teams use dime sets that are not "Big").

Keenan Robinson (MLB) - Substitutes in for Sheppard in passing situations and is always the MLB in their dime sets; in order to get the behavior correct you'd either have to assign Robinson as MLB1 or use some combination of Formation Subs using Sheppard and Robinson
Jonathan Casillas (ROLB) - ILB in their 3-2-6 Dime sets



As explained in other topics, the FS #2 position is sometimes a slot corner and sometimes an inside linebacker, but you can force FS2 to always behave like an Inside Linebacker in dime sets if this person also happens to be the starting ROLB. It isn't just a coincidence that a lot of coordinators use their ROLBs in dime sets, it is a consequence of the type of coverage they are running, especially in long yardage situations.

There really is a vast amount of hidden logic here in how NFL coordinators use certain players at various positions, and I do believe that EA did think of all of this and specifically set out to create their depth chart "rules" in order to apply that same logic to the video game. If you pay attention you can see a lot of patterns that emerge in how players are used and better understand why they are used in that way in real life.



* CHI, TB, PIT, OAK [pending]
and PHI and DET [still confused]

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby moonbax » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:55 am

* PIT

Long Yardage ILBs: Ryan Shazier (MLB), Lawrence Timmons (ILB)

Both show up in all long yardage situations, so to more accurately describe their long yardage sets Timmons has to come in as an inside linebacker in pretty much all their dime and Quarter sets.


* CHI

Long Yardage ILBs: Jerrell Freeman (MLB), Danny Trevathan (ILB)

Both show up in all long yardage situations, so to more accurately describe their long yardage sets Trevathan has to come in as an inside linebacker in pretty much all their dime and Quarter sets.


* TB

Long Yardage ILBs: Kwon Alexander (MLB), Lavonte David (RILB), Daryl Smith (LILB)

They use a 3-3-5 nickel in long yardage situations, but no 3-2-6 dime looks. Sometimes Adjei-Barimah, slot corner, comes in to give a 4-1-6 dime, but this doesn't appear to be his primary role; he is more of a rotational nickel corner, and their scheme is more "Buzz" by design with Linebackers acting as "Force" players. However, using both the starting ROLB and LOLB in a Madden defense's long yardage sets is not possible without a lot of trickery and additional steps that I would really prefer to minimize so that more people aren't scared away by these suggestions than already are.

What I felt the best thing to do was to just assume that rather than using a situational or rotational player that I could fudge it a little by using a backup, Adarius Glanton, in long yardage situations. However, what could be done is that Daryl Smith could still be added in place of Glanton with Formation Subs if you want to more accurately represent TB's adherence to starting linebackers in all situations.

CAR is another team that hardly ever rotates their linebackers, makes it a nightmare to deal with them in Madden.


* OAK

Long Yardage ILBs: Keith McGill (SS), Malcolm Smith (MLB?/RILB?), Cory James (backup MLB or ILB?), Ben Heeney/Perry Riley Jr. (ILB/"MLB?"s)

Another defense which doesn't really bring out a situational linebacker, but Cory James can be found along with ILB Perry Riley in some passing situations. The Raiders use an extremely unique "Buzz" setup where they will typically use "MLBs" Ben Heeney/Perry Riley to cover the "Flat" in long yardage sets. However, at times it seems as though Cory James is actually rotating in for Malcolm Smith at MLB and Heeney/Riley are actually the ILBs, so these positions are extremely flexible and at times any of these individuals could be used as "Force" or "Contain" players. Their design appears to be more "Buzz" in nature, with "MLBs" Riley Jr. acting more as slot corner and James/Smith/McGill acting more as ILBs in their dime and other long yardage situations.


* DET

Long Yardage ILBs: starting MLB and ROLB, Devin Taylor (LE), Brandon Copeland (LE)???

Absolutely fascinating detail here with the Lions that I didn't really focus too much on because I thought it was just impossible to deal with: What the Lions and a few other defenses in the NFL will often do is they will use some sets that might look like a 3-3-5 or a 3-2-6, but in reality there will always be a third DE somewhere in coverage, whether it's as an ILB in long yardage situations or even possibly playing Deep Safety in quarter sets while another LE replaces them as a down lineman. In the case of the Lions it is Devin Taylor who often will "become" an Inside Linebacker in long yardage situations while Brandon Copeland comes in at LE in his place, so they are essentially using three DEs but with Taylor as an ILB. If you think about it, this would allow you to use plays designed for 3-2-6 dime and 3-3-5 nickel sets but with 4-2-5 or 4-1-6 personnel.

Then I discovered this fascinating and certainly not coincidental bit of info: ourlads.com lists Brandon Copeland (DE on official roster) as an "ILB":

http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/24019/ wrote:Brandon Copeland | 51
ILB


Clearly in Jim Schwartz's (and related) schemes some sets are designed to utilize a DE, most likely the LEs, almost as "Strong Inside Linebackers" in a 3-2-6 dime set.

That got me thinking, are there any other defenses which tend to use a non-starting DE as a stand-up ILB in situational, three-DE sets with 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 looks, thereby giving unique 4-2-5 or 4-1-6 sets in long yardage situations?

Danielle Hunter (MIN)

Frequent situational usage, primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of three-DE "3-3-5 looks" (actually a 4-2-5 with DEs Griffen and Robison, and Tom Johnson at Nose technique, if I recall correctly).

Mario Addison (CAR)

Clearly situational usage, primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of "3-3-5 looks" (actually a 4-2-5 with DEs Ealy and Johnson, typically with Vernon Butler at Nose technique). Note the similarities between the long yardage sets of CAR and MIN. I would hypothesize that both of these teams have simply adapted "Zone Blitz" concepts into nickel sets on passing downs by using DEs as ILBs (and ILBs as DBs).

? (PHI)

Also a Jim Schwartz scheme which might be using converted DEs as ILBs in long yardage sets. They would be primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of "3-2-6 looks" (actually a 4-1-6). I hypothesize that this person would be likely to be Steven Means based on his usage as a stand-up rusher in passing situations.

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby moonbax » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:35 pm

Alright, here's my best guess as to how both Kyle Van Noy (first start for New England tomorrow) and Ninkovich are likely to be used in some of their dime/quarter sets.

I'll have to redesign NE a bit. What I saw previously (most likely before Ninkovich returned) was Justin Coleman moving from outside corner in nickel situations to slot corner in dime and possibly quarter situations. This required some Formation Subs manipulation involving switching him with an outside corner (Cyrus Jones or Eric Rowe) in quarter sets and was unnecessarily complicated behavior, imo.

However, looks like Patricia et. al. majorly simplified things by just making Coleman more of a rotational nickel and dime slot corner in their dime sets while moving Rowe and Jones to outside corner in nickel sets. Now you can just leave Justin Coleman as a default slot corner and Rowe/Jones as your CB1/2 and not have to mess around with Subs there!

Justin Coleman - CB #4**** (CB)

However, looks like there are still some interesting details about their preferred long yardage set that still needs Formation Subs to depict: You'll want to set Rob Ninkovich as a hand-in-the-dirt DE in all of New England's dime and quarter sets in Madden. Before Ninkovich's return I recalled a lot of 3-2-6 dime from the Pats in long yardage situations, but that may have been because of Ninkovich not being available. It looks like their preferred long yardage set is clearly a (three-Safety) 2-3-6 dime with Ninkovich as a hand-in-the-dirt rusher. Long is usually on the opposite side, and Sheard will rotate in at times with Ninkovich dropping back into coverage. It turns out that the Pats most likely don't use a Quarter set, perhaps only as a backup plan. I noticed that they pretty much always have their starting three linebackers out in long yardage sets, with Ninkovich essentially as a DE. In other words, Hightower, Ninkovich, and just as Collins was before him Kyle Van Noy is almost certainly going to be used in their nickel and dime sets, with Hightower and Van Noy as the ILBs or possibly slot corners (Hightower is typically the "Force" player) in these sets; Van Noy played a LOT of slot corner for the Lions.


The many faces of NE's Big 2-3-6 (including "Prowl" version) dime set:

Spoiler:
* Ninkovich as stand-up rusher; very "Prowl-like" 2-3-6 dime set, can be easy replicated with EA's "1-5-5" nickel sets

Image

* Ninkovich as hand-in-the-dirt rusher

Image

* Ninkovich in coverage

Image

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Re: Classifying Each NFL Team's Big Safeties, Slot Corners and Hybrid SS/ILBs for 2016 Madden 08 Rosters

Postby moonbax » Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:04 am

moonbax wrote:Alright so, I have some possible dime info on the Vikings and Panthers, plus possibly for the Seahawks, Bengals as well. They all have a unique feature that I have noticed: They like to use a DE in coverage almost as an LB in a 3-3-5 nickel or in some cases 3-2-6 dime set: MIN: Robison, Hunter... CAR: Addison... SEA: Avril, Clark... CIN: Johnson

And it looks like this; DE Addison is in the two-point stance. In the case of Robison I have seen him placed at both the right and left side of the defense in a two-point stance.

Image
Absolutely fascinating detail here with the Lions that I didn't really focus too much on because I thought it was just impossible to deal with: What the Lions and a few other defenses in the NFL will often do is they will use some sets that might look like a 3-3-5 or a 3-2-6, but in reality there will always be a third DE somewhere in coverage, whether it's as an ILB in long yardage situations or even possibly playing Deep Safety in quarter sets while another LE replaces them as a down lineman. In the case of the Lions it is Devin Taylor who often will "become" an Inside Linebacker in long yardage situations while Brandon Copeland comes in at LE in his place, so they are essentially using three DEs but with Taylor as an ILB. If you think about it, this would allow you to use plays designed for 3-2-6 dime and 3-3-5 nickel sets but with 4-2-5 or 4-1-6 personnel...

That got me thinking, are there any other defenses which tend to use a ... DE as a stand-up ILB in situational, three-DE sets with 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 looks, thereby giving unique 4-2-5 or 4-1-6 sets in long yardage situations?

Danielle Hunter (MIN)

Frequent situational usage, primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of three-DE "3-3-5 looks" (actually a 4-2-5 with DEs Griffen and Robison, and Tom Johnson at Nose technique, if I recall correctly).

Mario Addison (CAR)

Clearly situational usage, primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of "3-3-5 looks" (actually a 4-2-5 with DEs Ealy and Johnson, typically with Vernon Butler at Nose technique). Note the similarities between the long yardage sets of CAR and MIN. I would hypothesize that both of these teams have simply adapted "Zone Blitz" concepts into nickel sets on passing downs by using DEs as ILBs (and ILBs as DBs).

? (PHI)

Also a Jim Schwartz scheme which might be using converted DEs as ILBs in long yardage sets. They would be primarily a stand-up rusher who drops into coverage on passing downs out of "3-2-6 looks" (actually a 4-1-6). I hypothesize that this person would be likely to be Steven Means based on his usage as a stand-up rusher in passing situations.



I've been talking a lot about these "3-3-5 looks" for a while now, but couldn't quite put together a whole topic explaining it, until now:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19013


moonbax wrote:So far I have found two "Zone Blitz" plays designed for Long Yardage, Third Down, and general Prevent situations in Madden 08's playbook designs:

ImageImage
Left: 4-1-6 dime with CB #4 (slot corner) as blitzer [or 2-3-6 or 4-2-5 nickel... or etc. with DCHT or Subs adjustments]
Right: Quarter with FS #2 (circled) as blitzer [or 3-2-6 or 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 nickel... or etc. with DCHT or Subs adjustments]


The one on the left appears to be run most often from a 2-3-6 dime in the NFL from what I see, where the Ends are substituted with OLBs who serve as pass-rushing specialists in these situations. This coverage looks like "Sky" coverage to me because a Safety and an outside corner are "trading places" after the snap, with a Safety dropping down into the "Flat" to fill the void left by a blitzer ("CB #4").

The Quarter Zone Blitz play (right) is a little different in that it uses "FS #2" as a blitzer while one or two "DE"s drop into coverage. In 1-3-7 or 2-2-7 quarter sets these DEs would actually be OLBs who are dropping into coverage. However, you can run this same play from just about any personnel grouping that the twisted minds of NFL defensive coordinators can concoct, because I believe that many NFL defenses are actually using ILBs and DEs as "CB #4" and "FS #2" when they run this type of coverage, turning a Quarter set into either a dime or even a nickel.

Allow me to demonstrate what I mean and how it could translate into Madden 08 using Depth Chart and Subs manipulation. Here's what the Vikings like to do, bring out a Third DE (Hunter) in "Prevent" and other Third Down/Passing Down situations. Usually Robison becomes a stand-up rusher in these situations, which gives the illusion of a "3-3-5 nickel":

Image

What I believe they may be running from this set is essentially what you see in the Quarter Zone Blitz play, but using 4-2-5 personnel. How on Earth do you accomplish this? Simple, the stand-up DE is treated as an Inside Linebacker (or Box Safety) in these sets, by replacing "FS #2" with your situational DE. Furthermore, one of the slot corners, CB #4, would be substituted with a Linebacker; either the Nickel Corner (CB #3) or CB #4 could be a blitzer in this set depending on the orientation of the play, but FS #2 is always a blitzer/pass-rusher.

So what would happen if you used your situational DE (Danielle Hunter) as your blitzing ILB (FS #2), and then used a situational Coverage Linebacker (Emmanuel Lamur) as CB #4, to drop into the void left by the blitzer in this Quarter Zone Blitz play?

Image

This is not a Quarter, it's not a 3-2-6 dime, it's not a 4-1-6 dime (though it could be with one less linebacker), and it's not even a 3-3-5 nickel as many would initially presume. No, indeed, it's a 4-2-5 nickel using "Zone Blitz" concepts designed for Quarter personnel.

Example of use in Madden 08: Compare this shot to the one above (Robison and Hunter will have to "switch places" in the M08 version unless you want to use Robison exclusively as a stand-up rusher).

Image

This is what you would see if you were to use my custom DCHT and PLSU (Subs) found here: viewtopic.php?f=86&t=18989

I used situational DEs as blitzers in some long yardage sets for the following defenses in my Subs: CAR (Mario Addison), DET (Brandon Copeland) and PHI (Steven Means), in addition to MIN (Danielle Hunter).


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